IBD exit doesn't exist in HK
Rant for an associate here who has spent years finding exits, exits are mostly non-existent even during the best time in 2021. Just laying out my thoughts in simple bullet points here for anyone who is interested
- Most of the firms in the region don't hire bankers. Looking at buyer logs etc. of projects I am on. Most of the corp dev guys are not from IBD background. Instead they are usually big 4 or homegrown finance guys who lateralled. On some occasions, the head of corp dev come from IBD but these guys are usually ex-MD who are personally connected to the rich family corporates and was invited to head their business operations. They then built the whole corp dev franchise by hiring internally or from big 4
- Bankers are too expensive and doesn't signal loyalty to them. This was the direct feedback I got from multiple recruiters which I made to the final stage and discuss comps. I quoted 30-50% cut of base salary (and assumed bonus is 0). I was outright rejected by a few and some pressed for further paycuts. 2 months later, I found on linkedin someone from EY FDD or Accenture got the offer instead.
- Business functions consider big 4 over bankers. It is for the same reason as above. A 5-year banker makes 18k USD base a month in HK whereas a 5-year FDD manager makes 7k USD a month and check the box with CPA. The hiring folks basically think if they offer you 8k, you are not going to be happy with it and you aren't staying long. Yes, they think for you and reject you when considering candidates. FFS. Nonetheless, the FDD guys probably are more hands on with EBITDA adjustment and financial deep dive than us working on data mining in IBD daily doing crap work
- There are few acquisitive MNCs with dedicated Asia corp dev team. Most MNCs have very small corp dev team and most do it in US / their HQ country. Few companies are HQed in HK besides Hong Kong corporates who know how to lowball even when it comes to IB fees.
- If they hire you, they expect you put in banking hours. There are a few MNCs or local tech companies who can pay (c.USD8k for 5-6 years of experiences and below USD5k for 3-4 years). Many of these are acquisitive guys in the industry with well-known toxic culture. Some explicitly told me they hire ex-IB because "they can tank the hours". You are making corporate pay while continuing IB hours and their key selling point is "you don't need to originate". Don't go there as an Analyst / Associate. Those places are full of VP/D who cannot make it in banking by just putting their body and hours. Enjoy working with people who think stamina and perseverance are their greatest asset.
- Situation is even worse right now with oversupply. Self-explanatory - the companies that pay are few to begin with and most have shut their doors
- There are jobs that can pay with decent hours but they are extremely difficult to get, and they are not the exits frequently mentioned here. Such as IR at a fund (IR at corporate pays peanuts), credit risk or IB COO (surprisingly you will get paid double vs your corp dev exit if you can manage to lateral there without experience cut), private bank investment specialist (those guys who do calls explain to UHNW why invest in some PE funds). I have friends who managed to exit to these roles. Personally I spent years trying but it didn't work out for me though
- MF exits are not easy and many MM funds paycuts while delaying your promotion. Also, enjoy doing your slides without formatting team and data mining without data team
Sorry guys for the rant, just writing the "buyer beware" note here in case anyone thinks IB is the golden career passport after leaving the industry
Based on the most helpful WSO content, it seems like you're expressing frustration about the lack of exit opportunities in Hong Kong for those in Investment Banking Division (IBD). Here are some key points you've mentioned:
It sounds like you're in a tough spot, and I understand your frustration. It's important to remember that every career path has its challenges and it's all about finding the right fit for you. Keep exploring different opportunities and don't lose hope.
Sources: What you need to know about IBD in Asia, IBD in Canada following Dutch undergrad?, Q&A: HK IBD
I think this is the closest I have seen to Monkey Bot telling someone that they're fucked.
What bank are you at and are you chinese? I know quite a few associates at the top HK banks exit to MF/UMM/SWF. From talking to them sounded like process was fairly straightforward and they didn't spent that long looking. Also why are you trying to leave?
These are not real exits. Most buysides are just continuation of IBD without formatting support and data mining support. Especially joining as an asso where you are the most junior guy in the deal team whereas at least you got someone to do the dirty slides had you stayed in IBD
have seen HK bankers exit quite well to PE funds etc.
think some of your reasons persists for all markets, not just HK
Let's be real, PE at least in Asia is a hardcore continuation of IBD analyst stint. You will continue to be the most junior guy doing stuff and most of the time PEs don't loop in advisors for phase 1.
This means you are taking a paycut, doing modeling / data mining / formatting without support from anyone. If someone hates IBD, PE is going to be worse. It is just a dangling carrot to entice analysts with the dreaming partner track. At my bank we have a few returned from boyu/hopu/primavera to sellside and we received a few from BPEA/other MF as well once in a while. Not sure why but bet some of them who lateraled regretted and see themselves having no chance making MD/partner there hence coming back asap.
Uhhh…it’s a continuation not just in Asia… You describe problems many face in our line of work
My friend was at an mid tier BB as an analyst and then went to GIC/Temasek. Seems like he is enjoying life and getting good pay tbh
One of them pays 12k SGD for 3y of IBD experience, which is like 40% cut from IBD
Not sure if it is really that "great" as I have friends inside and it is even more demanding than sell side in HK (albeit easier life than SG sell side)
(Ignore Intern tag, have close friends inside)
GIC supposedly has better WLB, but Temasek (depending on group, in this case it’s Agrifoods, more or less their largest team) is still pretty sweaty.
People expect SWFs to pay well and have WLB, but honest answer is it depends. My friend and his team gets frequent 2/3am nights throughout the week, but of course it’s more chill during the downtimes as well.
I think in the US, PE seems to be the promised land/exit, but in Asia honestly PE shops are sweatier than a lot of banks. I think in Asia the hours tend to be longer as a whole for god knows what reason. MS had their analysts working until 4/5am on the daily…
Can confirm for GIC/Temasek, have heard amongst LP circles that GIC Direct Investments (which co-underwrites large PE/growth transactions, minority equity only) is actually very sweaty because everyone there is basically an ex-banker wanting to do buy side work or ex-direct PE guy who wants to continue doing deals without sourcing since GIC gets shown deals by every large sponsor on the planet. GIC funds team is a lot more relaxed. Temasek's culture is pretty harsh, similar to banking but with somewhat better hours.
PE in Singapore is a tough gig - if you're lucky enough to be at a large fund, expect to work banking hours for less pay while they dangle the promise of carried interest if/when you get promoted. Smaller funds have better WLB, but substantially worse pay compared to BB IB + upward mobility may not be there given the small teams and key man driven culture of many of these firms. Lots of highly capable folks that join smaller funds find that they're stuck at VP/director level and bouncing around from firm to firm because they can't source deals. Most of the banker-led processes for smaller companies in SEA are for pretty crappy companies, and good companies worth investing in are really fking hard to buy because 1. they're family owned and the family refuses to sell or 2. you have to be very well-connected both politically and in the business circles to cook good deals for some time before pulling the trigger.
Anyone considering the IB -- PE route in Singapore should tread very carefully... often the best PE firms in the region are founded by exceedingly well-connected folks who already come from money and influence. Singapore is a lot more like its SEA peers in this aspect
Your exit opp is getting thrown to the wolves in some off-the-grid prison in Xinjiang for dissenting from the CCP propaganda that HK is a (totally Chinese) paradise.
Thoughts on Canadian SWFs CPPIB, CDPQ etc. in HK?
Think they're contemplating moving offices to BJ / SH / Tokyo no?
They lay off as hard as banks. Have a few friends of friends lost their jobs in 2 of the Canadian funds recently.
Work wise some teams inside are great and some are as toxic as IB.
Most of them seem to be moving away from China/HK, not sure of how much it’s an option LT.
lol HK no exit? wanna talk about singapore sweety?
Elaborate on this? I thought SG had quite a number of boutique MM/LMM pe firms as well as some MF spots
Yes quite a number, though quite a number of SEA funds are basically zombies because they can't raise money. The more established and stable regional ones (Quadria, Southern Capital, Dymon Asia, KV Asia, Navis, etc.) pay significantly below BB IB pay on both base and bonus - expect a 30-50% pay cut on total comp, with hours and culture also highly variable. Even for the megafunds, expect a 10-20% haircut on base and bonus as well. A lot of the regional funds staff out of KL/Jakarta/Thailand as well where it's cheaper to pay staff and to get native Bahasa/Thai speakers.
The large guys like BPEA/CVC/TPG hire at most 1-2 juniors a year. Turnover is low, everyone is trying to get in, so exit options are really scarce in Singapore in terms of PE. Lots of IB folks are getting killed on hours but find it hard to give up the significantly above market pay they're getting, so lots of people stay on but continue to be miserable
Anyone that has went through such a situation able to comment regarding SG exits?
Accepted a BB IB summer offer in SG (think JP/MS/GS). My understanding through talking with bankers from HK and SG is that SG seems to be sweatier where analysts lead deal processes - a scene not witnessed in HK. In that case, genuinely curious on why SG exits are trashier compared to HK.
Also, any advice on how to potentially get better exit ops? Try to lateral to HK/LDN? Or pursue an MBA in USA and look for opportunities there?
Are you saying that the "exits" like MF / PE / MMs equal paycuts & even tougher times?
Then... what do you do if you are not leaving HK? stay in IB for ever?
SG, but honestly yes - being a career banker in Asia seems way more common here than in the USA, I think M&I even had an article touching on it.
Some also just exit to AM/PWM using the prestige of their previous gig and just chill.
Tough though. Tried exiting to things like credit risk, COO or even PB investment counsellor / AM IR or sales team
Most of these shops won't even give you an interview
Some will tell you networking is required but in reality, finding someone who works in that team is difficult and network everywhere every time is just like shooting into the dark
Strategy teams mostly consider ex-MBB and corp dev teams are way smaller with lower comp
In fact, I think MBB has a way easier time finding exits as they get strategy roles (which are more common than corp dev) and recruiters' attention for general corporate functions. Their lower salary also helps them convincing their interest moving to corporate (vs bankers who apply for corporate are mostly seen as seeking a temporary job before jumping to somewhere with better comp)
AM like PM stuff or other things? not familiar with HK AM
ignore the title but have turned down HK BB SA offers before and know many family friends that are clients.
The fundamental difference is that Chinese firms just don't care much for M&A or inorganic growth in general, you can see this by how difficult it is for non-unicorn startups to exit and general poor performance of venture funds. Maybe its'a culture issue - most chinese companies are new and still owned by the founder and will continue to be a family business, they just don't think about M&A. This pretty much eliminates corpdev and also kills a bunch of PEs. I'm sure you worked on much more ECM or DCM type function vs M&A as we think IBD does in the US.
I actually have seen a good amount of IBD to MBB transitions. I def would argue MBB exit is also tough, but somewhat better than IBD.
Daddy Xi's genius HK/Foreign/Econ policies def didn't help.
Ya even ECM is quite dead in HK now... ECM and M&A in Singapore is very very sporadic, and ironically it's actually the local banks that have easy deal flow on the DCM side lol
HAHA, on point for sure. There's recent news on how SG's IB fees are down 20% from 2022 (decade low), and the champion in terms of fees is DBS (local SG bank) at 13% of the overall fee pool.
MBB isn't bad but currently MBB basically just halted their recruitment pipeline. And tbh, MBB pays significantly lower than IB
Analyst is equivalent to consultant at Bain or associate at Mck, and an associate is paid well above an EM or equivalent at MBB
For a fresh grad from uni, I guess you can justify by taking their MBA subsidy (one won't be able to find a decently comped job exiting in 2 years time anyway)
But for an ex-banker, that paycut is just too heavy plus MBB work is also quite brutal when it comes to data mining and slides (100 pages of strategy paper full of charts is more intense than IB RFP imo)
Just wanted to say that this is an excellent post and gives good colour
Great write up, thank you
OP - when you're looking for exits what exactly are you looking for?
Are you asking for IB pay but less hours? I don't think that exists in Hong Kong nor in the UK / the US (but correct me if I'm wrong).
I was asking for 60k salary corp dev or strategy position with 4 yoe, among 5 companies I made to final, only 1 can offer that and the other 4 asked for further cut or outright rejection citing they can offer nothing close to it.
I hated intense modeling or ppt for 16 hours a day so never consider PE.
I also applied roles like fp&a, pb or corporate banking relationship management, research associate, credit risk, coo, fof etc. over 100 jobs.
I did not receive any interview and never reached out to me on salary
I also applied Nuveen re investing and got interview with a few. But I was told by HR while feedback is positive, they cannot offer a senior position to someone with no re experience. And paying 25-30k to me would be unfairly lowball, so they appreciated my interest and hope for the best - team actually willing to speak with me further and confirmed this is the reason
I have colleagues exited to webank corp dev for 20-30k rmb with 3 yoe or some funds like phoenix with 27k hkd for 2y exp. So I am not surprised the outside opportunities pay lower to bankers than someone with equivalent experience in commercial banking / bo / big 4
k
Are you still in CD?
D
What about exit opps to venture capital (HKSTP cap) and HF? Must be many opps there
Most HFs don't consider IBD candidates except for a very handful ones which would only look at you if you are from GS MS JPM. Most will look at ex-S&T (and yes, even sales is better than IBD for quite many funds who are short term and momentum focused punters). There are also many small HF who would hire people from random background (risk, factset analytics, etc.) because those people are asking below 20k HKD a month and they are willing to hustle for those jobs.
For those that consider IBD, you will be competing against BB ER analysts or anyone in PE who are being worked to death by their bosses and looking for fast paced go home early HF jobs.
I believe HKSTP pays so low that there was someone who recently took 90k HKD pay to move to a CD role with ~15 yoe. For other VC, you can take a look at shops like Monk's Hill, Arbor, Mind Works, etc. None of them really hire bankers, most of them recruit from personal connections with people who hang out at tech or startup events and willing to start from a low pay (you won't be able to live on your own in HK as a foreigner with that salary if you are in your first few years of career). It is dominated by people from the non-target, non-IBD background who tried a few random startups in product and marketing, and schmoozed well enough with the venture guys. Heard Hendale gave offer to one of my colleagues and it is 40k for 5 years of BB IBD experience joining as an analyst. Best bet would be joining HK family offices which pays 60-80k HKD a month with 5-7 yoe and work for 60 hours a week tbh
Other readers can correct me if I am wrong but this is my observation.
Fair enough. HF is unlikely.
But also seen others exit to MM PE (yes with paycut, local Chinese firms, then work their way up), private credit like CVC, some do HSW MBA, get startup experience in the States and go to global VC firms like DST Global, or HK MBB (admittedly rare)
I know one person who went to LBS and did MFA, then started in corp dev.
The best go to MF, know a lot who go to Bain Capital, some KKR.
Care to comment on these exit opps? I'm sure there are plenty of options if you consider all the paths...
Bro, many options you listed are in finance but they are not exits from IBD
- MM PE is painful with crazy paycut. It depends on how MM it is. For example, places like Loyal Valley, M31, CPE, Trustbridge, Dayone are full of non-IBD people, just google them and take a look
- Private credit opportunity is scarce and if you weren't in GS MS JPM, you need to be in re/levfin/dcm/fsg (less so for dcm and fsg) for 99% of time. If you look at SSG (Ares Asia predecessor), they hire bankers but the founders themselves are ex-traders. In many non-MF shops (no strict BB IBD requirement), you will be competing with people from big 4 or fresh out of uni (who wants to get into the industry and don't mind getting paid 2-3k USD a month) or people from trading / credit agency or even corporate banking or trading risk. Most IBD sector kids have no knowledge of SOFR, credit spread, margin ratcheting, etc. and difference between TLA / TLB, imagine a credit fund would pay salary of an experienced professional for an amateur
- HK MBB pays less than IBD analyst salary so imagine if you did IBD for 3-4 years then MBA for another 2 years getting paid slightly more than an IBD summer analyst. And just a reminder MBB is competitive af even coming from M7 given the lack of LDP and IBD asso recruitment pipeline in Asia
- Getting into DST, but what are the chances? Most VCs (names I mentioned above are pretty big ones in HK + you can find from co-investment program on HKSTP website) list their people online and you can see most aren't from a high finance background. If you have to do startup to get in, you could have done it 5 years ago doing a business or product development role starting at airwallex and the likes and join a VC. Doing HSW MBA to detour is like reinventing the wheel...
- LBS MFA, not sure if this guy did IBD, but getting corp dev *without* IBD background is not that difficult in Asia given this is usually 2 different tracks of career in HK. Their budget is only 20-40k for an analyst and they don't like ex-bankers. Similarly, banks don't like corp dev people much seeing them without the IBD pedigree or long hours mentality
- The MFs hire 1-2 people every year. 1 BB alone will hire 20-30 FT analysts in a year (lower in 2022 / 2023) but imagine you have A1-Asso1 3 to 4 years of classes at 6 shops (GS MS JPM Citi BAML UBS) competing for 20-30 spots with the successful candidates continue formatting slides for next 4 years without analyst help and these top tier kids compete with each other with a high chance of getting kicked out before making principal. That must be fun
I think MM PE - UMM PE is still pretty good. One guy took interviews for 20 shops and finally got one offer. He stayed on and is now a VP, he says he is earning 10-12MM HKD bonus a year in addition to base. He admits he might never make partner but is satisfied with his salary. And who wouldn't
I know a guy who went from CDH to Sequoia as a VP. Another came from TPG. One from Warburg. Even though it's rare its possible to do VC/GE after UMM PE. And yes MF PE is difficult but instead of trying to compete, you can get in through HBS/GSB
Also, you say MBB after MBA is paycut. But if you play the long game, if you have the ability to grind IBD, you likely have the stones to make AP/partner. MBB is more chill & has the highest concentration of partners in the corporate world & that's again a risk free 8-10MM HKD in cold hard cash.
Why not keep an open mind, you are already in a good spot. Maybe take a break and go business school?
Your reply is too funny as even MF VP/Principal don't make 10m HKD all in
I will also loop in lakakahakaka to see if he has any views but in general I hope nobody listens to your serious troll
8-12m does not even happen in US, let alone HK. I have buddies at Navis making below 1.2m HKD as a VP and you are telling me an MM VP can make 10-12m lol
Look at Loyal Valley and the likes they don't even pay their VP 1m all in with 3-4b AUM
Agree, MFs in SEA actually pay at a discount to BB IB at junior levels. At mid to senior levels if you include DAW on an annualised basis it may be more than USD1m yes. But otherwise if it's just base+bonus, VP/Principal it's closer to mid 6 figures USD. Navis pays closer to regional fund levels despite its large fund size by SEA standards, cause they staff out of KL as well which pays quite a bit less than SG/HK
The people at Sequoia are all super cracked even in Asia. When I was there some of my mentors did the traditional 2+2 track. GS/MS/JPM NY -> SF MF PE -> HSB/GSB -> Sequoia China. Also Sequoia HK is a very small office. Most VCs nowadays are based in mainland. Would not say that VC exit is a safe bet when you are competing with ABCs looking to come home
One thing to correct: IBD does not work on data mining. Data mining is finding hidden statistical signals in extremely large amount of data with millions of rows, and that’s not what IBD does. That being said, IBD is the best job in Hong Kong. Don’t know why you wanna exit. Literally no other HK jobs pay better than IBD. Recruiters reject you because they know you’re over-qualified. They are helping you out by preventing you from stepping down into a lesser-grade career and then later regretting about not being able to afford rent with those lowball. Another reason is, all the lucrative finance jobs are moving into Mainland China. Hong Kong is getting marginalized in the Chinese high finance world. High finance is heavily intertwined with CCP government. As you proceed further into high finance, it all boils down to connections with the Beijing. If you want a real exit from IBD, move to Beijing or come to US.
Totally resonate with you here. In the same boat as an associate at a BB in Asia and do not see any way out.
To exacerbate the problem at hand, I was actually lucky to have come from a pretty well to do family with a net worth of somewhere between USD20-30mm. So staying in this job and having to suck up to and get micromanaged by my bosses on a daily basis doing pretty inconsequential stuff, all in exchange for a decent salary makes even less sense.
Why don't you just get the fuck out then lol
Why are you so MAD
OP: what’s your next move then?
Sounds like you should either 1) recruit for roles outside HK or 2) go back to school. Don’t have to do an MBA though that obviously works. Could be a masters in anything you want to do. You don’t have to do finance.
Yes, am very curious what you want given that you have rejected all my suggestions based on pride (no paycuts), or simply because you "hate modelling".
Look, all high-paying careers in Hong Kong (& worldwide!) are going to be like this.
Doctors have to do 6 years of intense schooling (no university life), then 6-9 more years of residency before becoming fully qualified and "can go private". Even after 13-15 years grinding their income is still capped at PE associate salary. Also super intense and hostile work environment, many hate their jobs in HA & no exits. Many fail the British professional exams & forced to stay as a GP. Honestly if you are unhappy about your position imagine working for the HA with 0 benefits, very little leave, unmanageable patient load, fixed salary at 100k USD, no WLB, dirty hospital and sick people yelling at you, when you go home at 7pm you study for professional exams until 11pm. All that after slaving away your life in med school for 6 yrs, honestly my friends in the industry all are quite depressed or at least very stressed out. Most only find time to marry in their 30s, some don't even get married at all.
Lawyers have to compete for 5-6 years first at elite university, then PCLL, to get good corpo seat, then its training contract, and then 10+ years grinding as an associate doing even more mindless work than IBD analyst for a small chance at partner (drafting credit agreement, debt covenant etc etc.)
Honestly out of all my friends (trust me, I'm HKer) finance seems to be the best deal. 3 years uni, 3 years IBD, 3 years MM PE. Boom, you are a VP pulling in 4M HKD (500k USD) cash comp working 60-65 hours a week. That is honestly the sweetest deal in HK aside from being a business owner. Just suck it up for three more years at an MM, then you are a VP managing the deal process & won't have to touch modelling again. If you can't get promoted past VP, then lateral until you get Director and then coast. No other profession comes close. Really don't (fully) understand your complaints, you are in a very, very, very privileged position. ESPECIALLY in HK where the only industries you can make money are finance, law and medicine, everything else is nonexistent.
For context the 90th percentile income in the tiny city of HK is 70,950 USD/yr. So 2 years out of uni you are already making double the 90th percentile income.
And I forgot to mention one last exit opp which is family office. There are so, so many family offices in HK, you could just complete your PE stint, then go to a chill family office
I have talked a lot but one last thing to note is that at this stage of your career, you should not even care about paycut but care about what place offers you the most opportunity to learn & grow so that you maximise your career prime in your 40s and 50s.
As an example, do you think fresh grad doctors obsess over their starting salary and try to jump to private as GP? Some do, for 50% pay rise, but then they are capped there for life. Tbh, most doctors don't even care about salary, but the ones that do, will tough it out in the HA for 9 years for a low salary, then exit to reap the rewards.
So who cares about the supposed pay cut to MM PE or MBB when you could be making more 10-15 years down the line (since you don't hate your job lmao)? Play the long game buddy
Word.
also love your user name.
Quia facilis eos deleniti repellendus cum dolorum voluptatem. Ab deserunt corrupti odit voluptatibus odit beatae voluptas.
Rerum deleniti omnis quam quisquam nulla molestias nesciunt ea. Facere ut quia debitis. Voluptas quasi nulla quia aut dolores vel. Neque in voluptates eaque quis tempore. Cumque nostrum consequatur optio repudiandae cumque voluptates temporibus dolores. Nobis consequuntur voluptatibus iure deleniti voluptas neque. Quia facilis porro sunt nesciunt dolor.
Itaque illum aut incidunt. Cum harum ea vel cupiditate. Amet in aut et possimus est. Corporis rerum sit aspernatur est. Culpa voluptatibus consequatur animi sunt aut est. Deserunt quae cumque velit nam. Perferendis odio doloribus consequuntur eos et et.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Asperiores adipisci eum ipsam inventore dolorum. Tenetur laborum eius inventore atque ipsa voluptatem. Et quo eaque assumenda eaque praesentium architecto. Nihil animi et perferendis iste nisi. Quo aut ea quis consequatur. Repellendus unde dolor occaecati repellat. Sunt earum quia sit ipsa.
Dolor consequatur reiciendis nostrum consectetur nulla. Sit ullam debitis quo porro nobis et vero. Sapiente fugit amet amet dolores id magni veniam tempora. Ut aliquam repellat velit. Natus architecto unde voluptas esse at.
Voluptas ratione non consequatur odit. Qui eos est aspernatur vel modi excepturi. Ipsam debitis quasi porro exercitationem illo tenetur reprehenderit a. In at delectus id. Est enim velit unde.
Unde et quisquam voluptatem excepturi amet harum. Delectus hic et impedit quis reiciendis aspernatur et. Porro quia hic eaque debitis. Ad molestiae ipsam possimus. Et labore hic ullam non. Modi quod et quas earum quas cum quia.