Stop being a bootlicker and leave this rotten industry - IB isn’t worth it for junior employees
The IB path is fundamentally broken for junior employees. Smart kids jerk off to prestige, get abused into the dust for 2-3 years, “exit” to PE, and then realize they just traded one flavor of misery for another. After 5 years in, you’re don’t recognize yourself, you’re physically broken, abusing alchohol or drugs, and your relationships with friends and family are distant, if not destroyed.
The working conditions aren’t “tough” - they’re fucking killing people and aren’t improving. Leo Lukenas III — a Green Beret who survived combat — died at 35 from a blood clot after 100+ hour weeks at BofA in 2024, one of several young finance professionals to die in recent years under identical pressure. This is the default result of an industry that normalizes 4 AM finishes, fabricated hour logs, and zero senior accountability. You’re not paying dues, you’re being exploited by assholes who don’t give a shit if you fucking die. The survivors aren’t much better off: chronic health issues, anxiety disorders, stimulant dependencies, drug and alcohol addictions. Nobody talks about it, because admitting you’re struggling is career suicide. And the impact of AI? It’s not going to lead to better working conditions, and will lead to deteriorating conditions as shitbag seniors dump more work onto fewer juniors. You’re forced to do more work, cognitive load goes up and you burn out quicker.
DEI has created a two-tier caste system and everyone knows it but nobody can say it out loud. Look, I’m not here to debate whether diversity matters in principle. But in practice, aka what I’ve seen with my own fucking eyes, is that women are getting lighter staffing, softer deal assignments, and much better working conditions and treatment than their male counterparts. The path to advancement for women is being greased in ways that leave the average male analyst doing more work for the same or worse outcomes. The whole system is a mess of contradictions where male analysts and associates who are working the hardest get the least protection and are the most likely to drop dead.
H-1B and OPT visa abuse is the elephant in the room that nobody in finance media will touch. At the junior level, firms are using visa workers as cheaper, more controllable labor. Goldman is one of the top H-1B employers in the country. They laid off thousands in 2022-2023 while the top employers collectively brought in 34,000 new H-1B workers. JPMorgan and Citi are cutting investment banking roles while simultaneously sponsoring visas. There’s no requirement to prioritize American workers or even pay market rate. At the senior level it’s arguably worse because you have insular networks where managers hire and protect people from their own background, inflate credentials, and freeze out Americans. These are basically indentured workers who’ll tolerate conditions Americans won’t and that drags down standards for everyone. For American juniors, this means more competition for fewer spots and a promotion ladder that’s getting pulled up from both ends. And again, this is all stuff I’ve personally witnessed with my own two eyes.
Stop being a bootlicker and leave this rotten industry. Seriously. You’re risking your life - people are literally dying - in a system run by assholes who don’t give a shit about you, competing on a playing field rigged by DEI quotas and visa arbitrage, in a city you can’t afford, all so you can “exit” to PE and do the same thing with a slightly different title. Why choose to be physically broken, dependent on substances, and sacrifice your health, your friendships, and your twenties?
If you’re smart enough to break into banking, you’re smart enough to build something real somewhere else - tech, consulting, your own thing, literally anything where the people above you aren’t actively trying to destroy you. Stop jerking off to prestige and live your life - you don’t get another.
great post
White and Asian male juniors do most of the work and get treated like shit
agree god bless our beloved asians
Not only do Asian guys work the hardest, they are also the cutest.
It’s ironic that housing is so expensive in NYC, while 25% of people get heavily subsidized rent via rent control and public housing. You’re working 90 hour weeks to pay for Shanequia and her 3 kids to live in Harlem.
That's not what ironic means, retard.
IB analyst learns how taxes and redistribution works
Are you implying that this is a given?
do you think someone will commute for an hour to make your lunch slop bowl for min wage? Let’s use our brains here
Congrats on ubs!
Stop blaming H1B or OPT international hires. You should feel grateful and fortunate to be born in THE GREATEST country with one of the strongest financial systems. Canadians and other international candidates who are smarter, more competent, and working relentlessly to break into investment banking deserve their spots. They know they are late to the game, so they work harder. It is a skill issue at the end of the day. They want it more than you guys, so they put their heads down and work. You can argue that there are fewer spots for local Americans, but you do not own the bank, and banks want the best talent regardless of background. Stop blaming others and work harder.
Banks hire internationals because 1) they are cheaper (exempt from social security and Medicare taxes) and 2) they can’t say no to anything.
Additionally, I have seen very blatant ethnic nepotism with my own eyes - aka one ethnic group refusing to consider hiring candidates who aren’t in their ethnic group, firing other ethnic groups while keeping their own ethnic group members etc.
Internationals worsen the experience for Americans and Americans would be better off if we only hired Americans.
Yeah, it is because they are cheap and cannot say no. That is why they work harder. They are cheap and cannot afford to lose. I cannot speak about specific ethnic groups. I would guess Chinese or Indians. I have seen this too. But not going to lie, some internationals are very chill and hardworking. Selection bias and I’m sorry to heard that you had a bad experience working with them.
Essentially there are nationalities where the entire culture incentivizes hiring fellow 'Insert nationality'. They essentially gain kudos points for them and their family and the loyalty of the families of those they have hired. They simply don't have the same motivation when hiring someone (for example a regular American) because that kudos/loyalty/culture doesn't really happen at the same scale/way amongst Americans.
If you don't believe me research it...I'm the furthest thing from a bigot but this is a known phenomenon.
Canadians and other international candidates don’t deserve shit. Am I entitled to work at Morgan Stanley as an investment banking analyst in Tokyo (and steal a spot from a Japanese guy) as an American if I’m smarter, more competent and work relentlessly? Bullshit
Lmao you wouldn’t be entitled to the job if you were smarter, more competent, and work harder than anybody else… they’d want you above anybody else. Dumbass
Nationalism is dead
Canadians aren’t smarter
Western Ivey kids will kick your ass
This is a bad faith argument. No one is arguing that the most qualified shouldn’t get the job. They are arguing that IB’s hiring H1B’s is a clear abuse of the program. H1B program was supposed to be used in industries where there is a dearth of talent and they can’t find a US citizen to fill the job. That’s not investment banking at all. There is no shortage of US citizens looking for IB jobs. Furthermore, H1B’s are run through a need blind lottery system so every H1B that gets granted at Goldman takes one away from a H1B coming here to work on something actually useful like cancer research. It’s messed up and it should not be happening period. We have plenty of other programs that can be used to work in the U.S. if you’re a foreigner like L1 visas. IB’s should be banned from using H1B’s
" There is no shortage of US citizens looking for IB jobs."
Bruh you need to get on the other side of recruiting. There is absolutely a shortage of US citizens who are willing to do the IB job at any sort of competent level. Otherwise we wouldnt go through the hoopla of sponsoring internationals for this job.
Having led recruiting at 2 BBs I'll tell you this; if there are 2 candidates named A and B where A is a citizen and B is an indian or latin american. And A is only 75% as good B. We will always go with A to save ourselves from the headache of sponsoring
How prevalent is hiring international workers and H-1B or OPT holders in front-office roles?
Banks’ back offices rely heavily on these workers, and their presence has become the norm across the companies in the U.S.
Stupid argument. This job is not rocket science or really remotely hard to do if you have basically average intelligence. It’s the endurance and the mistreatment that make it awful and naturally hiring people who can’t leave on H1b makes it much easier to exploit juniors.
You are retarded if you think there is not an American out there who couldnt fill the role of basically everyone on h1b right now. They are not “better” by any means. They are just can’t leave.
They are just can’t leave it, it’s true
I have worked in IB and PE for 5 years now and have come to the conclusion that I have no respect for anyone in this industry anymore, including myself. We work with and for the most insecure, money grubbing losers, who who would probably literally suck their clients / LPs toes if they told them to. And the best part is that we are not creating generational wealth. The pay is GOOD but in no way worth the hours and sacrifice necessary to be considered mediocre. I would advise anyone to do basically anything other than this. The lack of respect and morality among everyone is shocking tbh. You become desensitized to it pretty quickly, but this is inhumane. Fucking crazy. Do not do this. As everyone else said, if you have the grit to get a job in IB / PE, use it and go do something real. We are slaves.
Well said
I think they'd suck dick over toes tbh
"And the best part is that we are not creating generational wealth."
If you are an investment banker who stays in investment banking your entire life, that means you made tens of millions of dollars in cash compensation over your career. If you don't know how to turn tens of millions of dollars of cash into generational wealth... that's a competence issue.
Top tier bait
—
I don't get the hate on Canadians. We are nice people and those who have worked with me would agree with this statement for sure. We made it out of Canada to pursue a better life, and a lot of hardworking and capable ones chose to go to other side of the border.
We share common language, common value, common banks.
We obey the laws and keep our head down. The big 5s hire much more Americans than the rest of the industry hire Canadians. If anything, having Canadians and Canadian banks in the U.S. is a net positive.
If anyone on this forum had different experiences, I am sorry to hear that. But a lot of us are very chill.
People just love to find anything other than themselves to blame for their miseries and skill issues. I interview a lot of kids and most of them have shit resumes and can't even have a conversation on video calls without reading off the screen. I am sure some of them are on this site being all frustrated about not being able to land a 'prestigious' IB or investment roles.
yeah this is a forum full of people working in the most prestigious careers in the world who went to the best unis, but someone find so much time to hate on the most obscure things. Very strange
Is this the same situation in Europe as well?
I still think the only reason someone should do IB is for long term career opportunities outside the industry. No normal person should be looking to make a career in IB.
I hope more people read this post so they decide IB is not worth it thus making it less competitive for me
you should read the post and do something better with your life
This post largely ignores people who enjoy grinding, so I think I'm alright. Pay & exits seem pretty good and have been pushed to limits my entire life (East asian household)
This isn't hard truth — it's grievance dressed up as moral clarity.
Investment banking isn't "broken" — it's deliberately demanding. Us bankers know what we signed up for... the late nights, the pressure, and the trade: short-term pain for accelerated learning.
This isn't evidence of systemic collapse — it's anecdote laundering.
This isn't stagnation — it's selective blindness.
Banking doesn't destroy people. Unstrategic endurance does.
Thanks GPT
Funny—didn’t realize coherence was automated now.
Any resemblance to GPT is purely coincidental. 😉
genuienly jump off bro
Accurate
Bruh I literally just got my junior summer offer. Should I start thinking about where to recruit FT for???? During recruiting I realized IB is not rly for me but I ended up getting an offer ….. Shoulda done corporate banking…. fuck
I’d still go for it. IB may suck for a few years but there are exits you can get with much better WLB and still good comp.
Do the internship and work like you want the FT offer - no matter what you want to do for FT, having a return offer is going to put you in a position that's 10x better than not having the return offer. Even if you don't have an offer by the return offer acceptance deadline, if you're recruiting for something other than IB, there's like 0 downside to reneging (unless you reneg for a corporate banking role at that same bank).
Maybe I have a skewed view, but I feel like if you know you’re not cut out for the IB grind (ie consistent 80 hour weeks) and you’d exit to some chill job (where you’ll take a massive cut and hit on long-term trajectory), might as well do Corporate Banking at a BB to maximize comp, learning, and WLB (while retaining some cool exits).
What I should’ve done looking back is this: I had sophomore BB IB, junior SA at an asset allocator focusing on PE/VC, but I did marketing at a couple of startups my freshman summer and really liked it.
If I could turn back time, I would’ve re-recruited hard for tech senior year instead of taking the return. It’s not the 2020-2022 tech boom but you’ll still have options.
Do the summer for sure. If you’re not 100% sure, don’t hesitate to look at other options. It’s so much easier to do when you have a .edu email address vs taking time out of work or even pausing completely.
Move to Scandinavia. The work–life balance is great—9 to 5 and then you go home. The pay is solid too. On the other hand, you’ll be doing things like cleaning your own place and helping your kids with homework, because the cost of those services is several times higher than in the US.
-
It's 80 hours
Tech is same or worse. Ruthless layoff ( see the news , and 80% layoff is silent not on news ), toxic managers, slow promotion, insane politics, 90% H1B concentration.
Seriously, if you want a truly prosperity career, top 1 is pro-athletes, top 2 is singer / influencers (those with lots of fans ), top 3 is ICE soldiers, top 4 is consulting ( but consulting at junior level has similar problems as banking, but promo is fast and once you reach partner level you're all set )
lowkey have been looking at ice career path. could I leverage my Ivy education into skipping grunt ranks and being a commander? Will have to see
It's the opposite. You went to a woke librul school so you will require extra training at the grunt level
ICE wants people with no degrees. the main job is to capture and kill, college degree has no use
Only losers whine about DEI lmao “surely it can’t be MY fault I’m not succeeding the way I imagined”
Once again, Congrats on UBS!
I'd get it if this was a tech forum or something but H1B hate in banking is just so forced. Rajesh in IT has nothing to do with your front office layoffs
Is BB Indian exploitation real? Have heard stories of people being exploited by never getting the promotion or having 4 year analyst + 6 year associate stunts.
Delete
It’s not about not wanting to work hard, it’s about not wanting to drop dead.
Lmfao you’re literally a college student dude. I’ll give it a few years and you’ll see what life you’re in for… if you even manage to break in
I always wondered why white collar workers aren't usually unionized. If Investment Bankers had collective bargaining power through Unions their working conditions would drastically improve. They earn well already, but I never understood why overnight shifts for useless powerpoint adjustments are tolerated. Can the dumbass client not wait another day?
Now, of course, if there's not some external entity that makes you follow these rules, the companies that have these useless overnight shifts will have a competitive advantage, which is exactly why a Union or a government needs to demand or legislate. What a waste of talent and time. Sleep matters. Health matters. Worker retention matters. But clearly executives won't go for what makes sense long term, so they need to be forced to care.
Bankers will never unionize - did you see that Amazon anti-union training video that went viral where they asked you to report workers that used the phrase "living wage"? Imagine junior bankers, who have followed the "rules" for 22 years, the moment they hear about unions, that's an opportunity to one-up your colleagues by turning them in, which will get more favor with your seniors. Any junior that even talks about unionizing will be a laughing stock because of the IB hardo culture or will get cut as soon as word gets out who's trying to start the unionizing discussion. Even Hulk Hogan ratted on his peers for trying to make a pro wrestler's union.
I think unions won't happen to industry when the delta between top and bottom workers are a lot which is finance, engineering and tech.
There is very little difference in received output between a nurse who got 3.9 vs 3.2 or a truck driver. But, pretty massive in the listed above jobs.
"DEI has created a two-tier caste system and everyone knows it but nobody can say it out loud. "
Stop calling it DEI and start calling it favoriting white women.
Sure but money money money
What do you suggest instead? Too late for tech and consulting is even worse with DEI and simply not a fit for me I think
"Look, I’m not here to debate whether diversity matters in principle"
Okay, I'll do that then. I like the concept of free association. If that results in a less diverse group, then so be it. I don't believe that access to the labor of white men is a human right.
The only societies where diversity actually works are societies with very authoritarian law enforcement like Dubai or Singapore. Otherwise you end up with situations like NY/California where it is considered "racist" for public teachers to pass basic proficiency tests, and hence everyone who can ends up sending their kids to private schools or moves out to Long Island/Jersey etc, and so on where it all becomes about various racial antagonism between groups instead of any collective common goal
Diversity kind-of sort-of worked in the US for a while because we actively encouraged assimilation and we've abandoned that entirely. Example, the point of the Columbus Day holiday was to assimilate the Italian immigrant population. The point wasn't to "celebrate genocide" but honestly, if you want to make it a celebration of how the Mayans and Aztecs who did routine child human sacrifice ended up losing to the Spaniards, I mean I'm okay with that too. I personally am against child human sacrifice, but maybe you disagree. Diversity!
In this house, Christopher Columbus is a hero, end of story.
Imagine being beaten by an international who has to find a bank that sponsors AND has to get the offer AND has to go through H1-B lottery might be a skill issue bro just saying
The prestige trap is real. We spend years obsessed with getting the right internship and the right analyst role, only to realize we're just trading our best years for a line on a resume.
If you have the drive to make it through an IB interview cycle, you definitely have the skills to build something elsewhere where you have a life. The "prestige" doesn't pay for the time you lose with family or the damage to your health.
It really pisses me off when people say H1B / OPT is somehow a big problem in FO finance roles and clearly clueless on the issue just looking to find another scapegoat for their own failures. What do you mean they are cheaper??? The FICA / medicaid exemption mentioned above is literally only valid for maybe your first year as an analyst (its only valid for the fist five calendar years you are in the US, including college, and after that point you are considered a resident alien and have to pay everything). Plus, we are all on the same contract, getting paid the same base, and most of the international kids I know are grinders and got top buckets, and to that point, making them more expensive employees lol.
Also on them “dragging down culture.” Fuck do you mean? Are you really complaining that someone works harder than you, and wonder how they took your spot / promotion? With that mindset, you will get pushed out regardless by a “harder working American” even if interntionals werent allowed to work on wall st like you wanted. Also, if you think international kids are enabling seniors to be absolute dicks and instill toxicity within the group, maybe the problem is with the seniors (which btw I agree is a serious issue) not the 20 something year old international kids.
Stop looking for scapegoats and just be better thx
Just adding a comment as someone fairly senior in the industry and who is now "at the other side" of the tunnel:
Unless you own your own legal or healthcare (dentist/doctor) practice where you could make A LOT, these levels of stable compensation are not attainable, even if you "do your own thing" (consultants on their own make about $100k but it's not the same pay every month). You can always have a tech start up but odds of being net positive within 5/6 years are pretty low.
Unfortunately, all this TikTok and brainrot is making it harder for today's juniors to plan further ahead than previous cohorts and they've been sold a dream of getting "rich quick" which does not exist for 99.99% of the population by "alpha male influencers". I'd love to win the lottery too and be paid billions, but one also has to have a plan in the 99.99% event that this does not happen.
Finally, DEI has not in the slightest made it harder for white males to join the industry. If anything through those applications where the applicant declares their gender/ethnicity etc, a lot of high-paying smaller companies in PE/HF won't even consider applicants declaring themselves as black or hispanic. I can guarantee that to you, and I say this as a white male. Heck, nothing stops you applying to jobs and saying you identify as a hispanic woman - you will see that you will get much less interviews.
Got to ask the question. Where are your data points from? We pay our associates north of $350k (well north as they get more senior) and there’s not a VP at a respectable firm less than $500k and it goes up from there.
100%, cue the "You can easily be on" in my comment. $350k is the lower end of pay at VP level.
"IB isn’t worth it for junior employees"
Lol
It's worth it. I'm out now, but a few years of pain put me on a great career trajectory that allows me to provide very well for my family.
FWIW, couple of underperforming diversity hires got canned at my last bank before bonus, so the meritocracy catches up sometimes.
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