Is anyone else worried about the rise in popularity of socialism globally?
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No
It is clear some posters get confused and mistake this board for their favorite Fox News/OAN forums, y'all need to get a grip and stop hogging up the page with this whiny nonsense.
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Republicans were at the forefront of social change 60 years ago actually.
Eh if anything I feel it's regressed.
Some of you bucks are too young to remember the Occupy Wall Street movement. The unwashed masses claiming for wealth redistribution and UBI only exist loudly on the internet or on college campuses. If anything - stimulus checks proved what a complete joke UBI would be.
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What do you think started the everything is racist movement? The elites shifted it from class warfare to race warfare. They don't care about minorities, it is to get everyone to get off their lawn
There are elites that use racial tensions to push for policies that benefit them, but they are the conservative elites. You really think all those rural MAGAs wanted to pay a huge chunk of their already small income on healthcare if Obamacare was repealed? Or the people on here wanted the SALT deduction gone? No. Nobody likes those policies.
They get elected by stoking the culture war and then harm those who voted for them. Most of the policies passed or proposed by liberal leaders have improved things for middle classes of all races, such as Obamacare or Biden's Infrastructure Bill.
What did you expect, as middle class continually gets poorer due to outsourced jobs, automation, stagnant nominal wages, and declining real wages?
You want these people to.. keep waiting for that wealth to trickle down? Anyyyy day now.
Thank fuck I work in finance, otherwise I’d be a hardcore socialist too. If you’re not in finance or tech, you’re pretty much screwed in this country
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Yeah.. You sound like a bigly fucking idiot.
Middle class includes teachers, cops, firefighters, etc..
That's the point of why people are fighting against capitalism. Because "you get paid whatever the market says you get paid." People are questioning the market - is the market aligned with societal values, their own values, etc.? What does the market reward? "Hard work?" Not really. The market mostly rewards people born to families that value white collar jobs. Most people on this forum don't understand that what people are fighting for are the same odds. For many on this forum, their odds at a cushy, high paying white collar job are >80-90%. For most people in the US, their odds are <50%. Why? Passed through the foster system, born to a family that doesn't value hard work or education, need to work to put money on the table starting at the age of 12, etc.
You’re obviously just immature and haven’t experienced the world outside of your bubble. This is fine, most people go through this stage. You associate your self worth to income, which is just a huge mistake. I hope you realize this is truly a mistake earlier in life rather than later, so you can find some semblance of peace.
It will be worse. UBI is coming, and if Canada is any idea of what's to come next, it will be terrifying. The government can shut down you bank account whenever they want, just for disagreeing with them, with ZERO due process.
Is that a UBI thing or digital currency/govcoin? Genuinely curious.
I think this was a clunky melding of two points. 1) Yes, Trudeau pushed for election of continuing the emergency powers in order to use FINTRAC to freeze accounts and snoop on people who were flagged for donating a measly $20 to the trucker protestors. 2) I could see a digital gov coin being a more subtle but permanent piece of that since all transactions are to be tracked on the blockchain and thus you are traceable by the government and can't hide or sneak around using a wallet of paper cash. How it'd all tie into UBI but somehow be different than current fiat money supply is a bit lost on me because they're the same thing at the base of it?
Its a latter thing, but UBI gets deployed through that.
People are tired of the establishment whether its the DNC or GOP, and they have understandable reasons to do so. Let me summarize the economic policies of each:
DNC Establishment: Higher corporate/business taxes. Higher nominal taxes on wealthy. Minimum wage laws. The upper class and middle class see their taxes go up while the UHNW use a variety of loopholes to avoid higher taxes and the small business owners suffer the most due to red tape regulation and unable to pay minimum wage. Large multinational corporations profit by small businesses being kicked out. Increased government spending can lead to inflation and budget deficits.
GOP Establishment: Low corporate/business taxes. Low taxes on wealthy. Increased corporate welfare. Less regulation. No minimum wage laws. While the upper class and middle class may see slightly lower taxes, the budget deficit increases due to corporate welfare and tax breaks on the UHNW which will have to be paid down the road. Lack of regulation can lead to safety hazards (see Southside Miami collapse) and environmental externalities (such as local aquifers being corrupted). Small businesses have a more favorable environment. Large multinational corporations get away with paying very low wages.
Add to this shareholders/investors who have 0 ties to the community and will gladly destroy communities by destroying local factories and shipping it all oversees to add a few basis points to their returns. Shareholders/investors who push for more and more synergies that always end up being destructive to a company and individuals in the company (just look at how well the Suntrust/BB&T merger is going) . And those investors are able to hide behind the corporate shield, since they have 0 liability for the actions they commit. Even the C-Suite that holds a bunch of stock usually gets a nice compensation package even while being fired right after a scandal. I think corporations are a good way for capital raises for middle sized businesses, and it's important to have limited liability for businesses of that size, but these protections as well as trickle-down economics is completely invalid for multinational sized businesses. We have 8/9 figure individuals who have abused and repeatedly misused the protections and growth conditions that were provided for small and medium sized businesses. On top of this, the government sits by and does nothing. A nuisance fine fee for major violations, but no enforcement of antitrust regulation that is long overdue.
There simply is no winning strategy under these two establishments. Wealthy multinational corporations continue to get even wealthier via tax breaks and/or small businesses being regulated out of the market while the average American continues to get poorer and poorer as nominal wages stagnate and inflation skyrockets, and jobs continue to be shipped overseas. Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. are some of the most stunning examples of what multinational corporations have done to the US. Using artificial divisions liberal media won't bring these cities up due to some perceived notion of "racism" (race is irrelevant to the stories of these cities), and conservative media chooses to focus on more prominent liberal cities. The MSM will not bring up these cities because the goal of the MSM is to deflect attention away from blaming the establishment, so such candidates can continue to win and ruin America. But people are waking up to the problems and are absolutely fed up. You can only lie and deflect from the American people for so long.
The best solution is a nuanced solution that provides growth conditions and capitalistic conditions for small/middle sized business, while at the same time having tighter regulations and higher taxes for the big businesses. Unfortunately, both sides have been bought out, and because of this I am not confident that things will end well at the rate things are going.
Socialism is scary because the government pretends that if it was given more and more power, then all the problems would be solved, while the truth is the government has had all the power it needs to put these corporations in check for over a hundred years. The end goal is more power and control, and the tossing of constitutional freedoms away, not solutions that will make the average person's life better. But what you have to understand is that the establishment is enabling the movement by doing little to help the average person.
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Stop believing what Fox News tells you. Taxes were much higher in the good ol days, but we've had five massive trickle down tax cuts (82, 86, 01, 03, 17). In addition you have Citizens United which allows endless amounts of money to flow into politics, and an underfunded IRS that can't enforce when rich people don't pay taxes.
Economically, America has shifted far toward the libertarian right. Bush Sr. called Reagan's tax cuts "voodoo economics", and even Reagan's economic plan closed several loopholes to pay for the tax cuts. But now, the standard right wing policy is trillions in tax cuts straight to the deficit.
Rich people should not pay the same tax rate as working class people. Before I get into why, I want to state that it is important to approach these topics with nuance, and I am completely against free-riders, meaning people who are physically able to work, but don't work by choice and get welfare and benefits. This is not the same as the working class who are productive which I assume also follows under your poor bucket. Now that we've gotten that out of the way the reason is that tax rates impact people different. Have you ever read articles on this site about how much income you need to truly feel comfortable? We can debate about whether that is $500,000 in NYC or $1MM but there comes some point where taxes have very little impact if any on quality of life. To be clear, I think everyone who works should pay some taxes because almost everyone benefits from public services in some way, but there's simply no denying that a 30% tax rate is going to hit someone making $50k/yr far differently than someone making $5MM/year. And even if you argue that poor and rich people should pay the same real tax rate, it's completely intellectually dishonest to act like that is happening at the moment. The wealthy are gaining most of their wealth through capital gains which is typically taxed at 20%. That's less than the federal tax bracket for those making $50,000. And let's not even get into the endless loopholes, deductions, and offshore havens that exist.
You're probably never going to hit a super wealthy status, although in your response you discussed one of many ways that the ultra wealthy avoid taxes. It's time to hold them accountable. That's not "socialism". That's just enforcing laws on the books.
Your scare tactics don't work on a site like this. Higher taxes and paying down existing deficit isn't communism. Communism revolves the government seizing the means of production and taking away individual people's rights. I didn't propose anything in that manner at all.
These aren't "unfair" laws. They accurately capture income, hold companies accountable when they do wrong, and stop giving tax breaks paid for by the working class.
Poor argument. Slavery existed in the 1800s... was that good?
For starters, the older generations didn't have the access to information quite like we do today. When they participated in wars, they really believed they were helping their country, not at all realizing how a majority of the deaths were caused due to the funding of the military industrial complex (for the record I support defense spending but not wars/conflicts). Another thing is that the older generations didn't deal with the all the issues we deal with today. As I said go study Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. even 80-100 years ago and get back to me. Finally, the antitrust laws have been on the books for over a hundred years due to exploitation during the Industrial Revolution.
What's not right is that in the pandemic, the government pumped money into the system allowing folks like bezos to ride it out in aspen while adding hundreds of billions to his net worth (none of it taxed since all unrealized and due to the step up role he can borrow against it and at death whoever inherits gets to step up the basis) while the workers at amazon need social welfare since amazon doesn't pay them enough (so the government is implicitly subsidizing the value of amazon) and dying due to the spread of covid
Of course people want policies in the end that benefit them, and sure, some are masked under the morality argument. COVID portrayed a lot of inequities in the financial health of individuals here. "essential workers" who generally are barely getting, and I hate to use this term, a living wage, and many non-skilled labor were fired or furloughed, while those white collar workers and UHNW individuals at the top did very, very well (even if it's on paper). But, on the flip side, some absolutely took advantage of the system enacted by state and federal governments, to the point where it ends up exacerbating a problem and enabling a bigger one to grow. The fact of the matter is though, how can the US continue to be the economic powerhouse it is while it leaves a majority of its people behind and those at the tip grow to the point where the gap is larger than that of the French Revolution? It just isn't sustainable in reality. It does get me annoyed that during covid I lost 30+% of my income as my effective tax rate while the average american paid no taxes. But, that's just never going to be the norm. They also needed the help when I didn't. It's not just a feel good story as an argument when you dive into it, but one that really ends up hinging the financial success of the country to continue to thrive. What you're describing ultimately isn't going to happen, but there has to be some give somewhere. You're also sounding like a libertarian, which also, won't ever happen in the US. We've been through these cycles repeatedly in US history if you look back. Sometimes it is understanding that trickle down economics ultimately may not have worked to create financial wealth (not the standard of living), as we thought it would, and sometimes just need to be a bit more open to see how things could get resolved without removing the US system all together
Even though Atlanta is is in the South, it is a Democratic stronghold. They've not had a Republican mayor since 1877. Something along the lines of 90% of African Americans in the city reliably vote Democrat, and 51% of the city is African Americans, so that's already 46% of the vote that is reliably locked in for a Democrat, and you only need 5% more from the remaining 49% to seal the deal, which is extremely easy to get. Obviously Black evangelicals are much different from white techies and blue haired feminists, but the democratic establishment runs deep in Atlanta like it does in other cities.
P.S. The "suburbs" of Atlanta that you are referring to is probably Buckhead which is inside the city limits. Most corporate offices are in the center of the city in midtown or downtown. This isn't a city like St. Louis where most corporate offices already sit in a suburb (Clayton or very near Clayton)
Thank you, this is definitely one of the few weird topics that has avoided a strong red-blue split. You get progressives that want to upzone everything to get more (and therefore cheaper) housing, or progressives that want to restrict all development to avoid gentrification (which, spoiler alert, isn't caused by developers, it's caused by people buying existing buildings and raising rents, new development is a sign gentrification already happened). There are conservatives who want to eliminate/reduce zoning restrictions for free market reasons, and conservatives who want to keep single-family zoning to keep their neighborhood the same. The average NIMBY can't be fit into a neat box, which makes it difficult to fight.
Nothing wrong with democratic socialism IMO. It’s the ideal end-state for where automation is taking us at this point.
A future where every citizen is immediately a shareholder of their hyper-productive economy seems like a pretty good ideal to work towards.
We're not headed towards democratic socialism though. Defund the police, open borders, cancel culture, growing surveillance state, gun control laws, etc. are pointing us towards somewhere else. That's the problem with the anti-establishment movement of the progressive left. It demands an increased government presence and a diminishing of individual rights as a prerequisite to solving the problems of the working class, when all the powers necessary already exist.
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Hilarious coming from the guy who wants Soros to pay less in taxes than me! Keep licking the boots of those glorious job creators!
I mean, if you want to live in a destitute world with rampant unemployment and an extremely angry (and violent) no-longer-working class who will have no qualms to attack people who created (or supported the creation of) that mess be my guest.
I would personally prefer living in a country where everyone has a stake in the economy and everyone is an owner entitled to dividends not just a bunch of lucky sperm cells and a bunch of people who extract money out of the system via fees / rents. It’s frankly bullshit that >99% of the people who contribute to keeping the economy going get practically no participation in the success of the economy instead forking up their returns on labour to a concentrated capital owner base that doesn’t give two shits about them.
Democratic socialism is what capitalism SHOULD be. Not this crony, semi-feudal bullshit we have today.
Much like the supposed "resurgence of fascism" or the completley fabricated "poor white people are actually Nazi domestic terrorists we need a police state to suppress", there is no rise in popularity of "socialism". Similar to fascism, socialism has no meaning these days and people who would have been considered actual socialists under accurate definitions don't exist. And the people in government who call themselves socialist (democratic or otherwise) are not socialists.
What you are seeing is that people around the world are increasingly fed up with the neoliberal capitalist order and are looking for any alternative to get out from this rainbow flag-waving corporate jackboot. And our regime is increasingly acting more demented and lashing out as the system crumbles (see Canada or the impending world war).
I hope we can create an alternative to this atomizing, culturally toxic marketplace we call a society. There is a better way to live.
So close and yet so far away. Right wingers will start to move in the right direction every now and then but Fox news says "They're gonna turn your kids gay and make your daughters marry black guys", and then it's back to tax cuts for Soros. They did it after Reconstruction to take away black peoples rights, they did it when the South tried to unionize, and they continue to do it now. When will you realize we as Americans have to work together?
You realize the Democrats were the ones that took away Black people's rights correct?
Regarding “working together”, you know that CNN is the polar opposite of Fox, correct? They constantly stoke racial tensions to keep the democrat establishment in power. Acting like this is one sided is ludicrous and is why we are where we are today.
I would really like to know when Fox says this. Also I'm sorry that you're too dumb to realize that fear in the past was palpable because "your daughter marrying black guys" was widely understood to be a euphemism for rape. What kind of weirdo gets so bent out of shape about a community practicing endogamy? Jews prefer to marry Jews and have created an ethnostate based on that notion. So what?
Also, you fail to see that these socially liberal "reforms" play directly into the hands of capitalists (the biggest enemies of traditional culture). Socially liberal societies are atomized and neurotic with weak community bonds. It's the perfect environment for rootless international capital to flourish. Not to mention the various mental disorders associated with it. Is it a coincidence that the relaxation of social mores since the 1960s is correlated with increased rates of drug abuse, suicide, divorce, and mass shootings? These are things that primarily affect the working class and they are primarily pushed for that reason.
I really don't see you offering anything better because you defend Soros' "philanthropy" at every turn. Someone like Soros shouldn't even exist.
lol
Other way around. Yankee carpetbaggers used blacks as scabs and strikebreakers when poor Appalachians and white sharecroppers tried to do really anything. It's always been like this.
It is really hard to buy this from you when you consider Americans to be Nazi domestic terrorists who need to be brutally suppressed by the woke police state or die for Ukraine. Forgive me if I'd rather not work with someone who wants to kill my people.
Seriously, the world isn't as black/white, socialism/fascism as Internet morons profess it to be. Moderates on all sides just don't yell into the void anytime someone uses a washroom or removes a book.
Ah yes, let's go back to the peak of capitalism when the East India Company, French East India Company, Portugese East India Company and the Dutch East India Company were authorized to literally conquer 1/3 of the civilized world with more private soldiers on its payroll than the British Empire and Iberia combined /s
Capitalism, socialism and communism was a mistake. Fascism/authoritarianism is the one true ideology.
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Authoritarianism is not confined to fascism, nor is it the antithesis of capitalism, socialism, and communism. Our current order is authoritarian.
This ship has sailed. Communism will take over and the money center banks (I.e. bulge bracket) will be ground zero. your best bet is to be Naftaly Frenkel at this point.
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They're authoritarian, nationalist utopias and true ivory towers that aren't infested with the African or Middle Eastern horde of immigrants and refugees.
holy shit
Nah. Wokedom has effectively neutered the economic left. It literally cut their balls off. You see modern communists wearing a wig and handling a dildo that they ordered on Amazon, filming themselves on their Iphone, on tiktok, while claiming they fight the owners and the revolution is coming.
If anything, the problem is the marriage between a decadent elite desperate to keep power and universities having turned into a mental asylum overproducing people with diseases, which results in a schizophrenic society unable to solve basic problems.
Think about it, the last working class movement, the truckers protest in Canada, was overwhelmingly opposed by the left, which sided with the guy from the World Economic Forum, who, by Klaus Schwaab words, has half of his cabinet trained by them: the organization of global plutocrats trying to dominate the world and bypass democracy altogether. Evil in plain sight. Liberals are a fucking joke.
I'd say don't worry. Smart people will be alright no matter the regime. If socialism takes over America, I'll just chill and collect UBI and play video games and travel instead of working. Maybe they will realize that socialism doesn't work when everybody stops working and nothing gets produced and there are shortages of everything.
You are straight up fucking brain dead for thinking $100K is even in the same universe as a billionaire.
I agree, I share the same concerns. The problem is multi-faceted as problems like this usually are… from the media narrative, moronic politicians like AOC and the gang calling for equity and such, it’s coming in from all angles.
I believe the greatest reason for the push for socialism however comes from the failure of our institutions and a failure from government. A good example of this comes from the student loan crisis. Prior to Sallie Mae and the “every American deserves to go to college” just like the “every American deserves a house” thing, the creation of Sallie and Fannie totally distorted the college and housing markets. The government entered the market and added ridiculous artificial demand because they made loans available to anybody … Yada yada we all know this.
NOW, college tuition pricing has soared from the advent of Sallie, no longer can somebody “wait tables” while going to college to cover tuition and living expenses, then they got out and realized their 4 year party was pretty worthless in comparison to the job they were able to obtain with $200k+ of debt. Now what right? Well, maybe that old Professor Oak had a point about the evils of capitalism… I’ve been duped. And yeah what about all those big banks that got off on the financial crash that cost my mom that job? Or that forced mom to sell off my 529? Yup, big bad capitalism at it again.
Worst part of it all, our society is becoming more and more rigid in its class system. 75% (guessing arbitrary number) of the colleges in the US are probably worthless. You’d be 10x better off just buying all the books and online courses you desired over 4 years and taking the $250k+ and investing it into something maybe even opening a fuckin pizza shop.
As always, big government has fucked us again. They created this college mess just as they created the housing market mess. Big government promises that somehow every American deserves a house and college education. They artificially distorted those markets and created a shit storm. All in the name of ignorant, stupid, possibly malevolent, politics.
So yeah where does this whole new push for communism and socialism come from? From the tens of millions of Americans that got screwed from the “free market” and from the “capitalist system.” Little did they know, big government were the ones who fueled the entire problem they have and big government will do it again except this time, it’ll cost you your freedom.
How come so many other countries have free college that works out just fine? Their bIG gOVERNMENT seems to be doing fine with education. Or how about the GI bill in our country? All those millions of WW2 vets got their free college from Uncle Sam and that was never a problem.
Stop being so ideological. Government policies can be good or bad. Libertarians want you to think the only solution to any problem is just tearing down more of the government.
This dude dumb af. Trying to shit on political views and policies his inbred brain can't comprehend
This is one of a string of fucking low quality, semi retarded posts that have started to crop up. I don't know why Reddit / 4chan start to flock here, y'all need to spend less time "jUsT ASkinG qUesTioNs" and more time trying to get employed. The economy needs it.
I am a bit worried however all the signs point to us moving into Chinese-style communism/socialism, not actual communism/socialism. And in Chinese-style communism what you have is basically capitalism, but the political and economic elite are completely untouchable. In our current capitalist system, the political and economic elite are just 99.9% untouchable. So that 0.01% increase won't really change our lives too much. And if you work in finance then when I am talking of the 'elite' I am really talking about our bosses (or, more realistically, our boss' boss' boss). So for us things won't change too much. Just cogs in a re-branded machine.
It's amazing how totally comfortable people are on this forum with corporations and the capital class essentially stealing from the middle class for three decades via stock market manipulation, capital gains/corporate tax system, not enforcing antitrust laws, and tax breaks/subsidies. If the poor/middle class knew how many trillions of dollars the Fed and capitalist crony politicians have stolen from them there'd be open revolution. But they aren't smart enough or focused enough to realize the truth. Culture wars play a part in this distraction, so do the typical distractions (TV, social media, etc.). Capitalism is damn near dead in this era of corporatism and many on this forum are totally fine with that because they deem themselves as either a.) beneficiaries or b.) future beneficiaries of this anti-meritocratic and corrupt system.
So, to answer OP's question, no. I am not worried about the rise of socialist programs such as medicare for all. I am more worried that at some point Joe Blow will realize he's been getting robbed for decades and chaos will ensue because of said realization. In that vein, we should probably hurry up with medicare for all and free college education before such realization occurs.
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Prime example of vomiting a lot of words and saying nothing at all. I feel nothing but sympathy for the poor people who have to tolerate you in the workplace.
Are you stupid? Most of the middle class don't have the expendable income to invest in the stock market beyond their pensions and small 401-ks... Certainly not enough to take advantage of the massive capital appreciation fostered by historically low interest rates that they now have to "pay for" via outrageous inflation. And no, the lower interest on their mortgage or car payment wasn't worth it.
Wow... after reading thru this post, I honestly think that [snusnu] is either a troll or a fucking idiot with no actual life experience trying to play it off as though he knows more than people. Maybe I'm too Gen X to know what the fuck being Red Pilled and based means, but the only takeaway I had is that I wasted 20 minutes reading this entire thread only to realize how childish and stupid the OP is. At this point, I feel bad for the people he will be working with at his EB who have to put up with this little shitbag.
Socialism in places like Japan and Scandinavia looks much different from socialism in the US, which has probably has the most bloated and corrupt government of any developed country. At this point I don't think there is a workable solution other than a complete collapse and rebuild from scratch.
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No, wokie identity politics completely destroyed the left's ability to actually do any of that by making the sort of people who would otherwise advocate for it completely repellent to a huge % of the population and making any sort of broad class unity impossible. Also, the further left an organization is the more likely it is to be distracted by increasingly trivial and insane identity politics bullshit. Case in point, the wildly entertaining highlight reel from the 2019 Democratic Socialists of America:
Extremely concerned and honestly don't want to live in the U.S. long-term if top marginal rate is >30%. Plan is to head down, bank until 45, put bonuses in bitcoin, and then renounce citizenship and move to Monaco, UAE, or another no-income tax country.
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I'm gonna do exactly that
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I'd rather be a permanent alien with a 0% tax rate than a citizen of country that steals half one's income (like being king of the little people).
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