Comments (255)

  • Analyst 1 in ER
Jul 29, 2021 - 5:22pm

The difference between markets/ER and IB is getting a bit ridiculous at this point..... 

Jan 24, 2022 - 3:37pm
NickJordan, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I know that such services usually use Text Message Automation, due to which it is often impossible to contact them about the problem. I understand this very well because I am a business owner myself, and I often get messages about this or that issue. I also use this service, but I just wanted to say that if you notice the same responses, then be sure that the person is using this system and it is worth calling the hotline.

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  • Associate 3 in IB - Gen
Jul 30, 2021 - 2:27pm

This is a serious question that will come off as offensive and/or naive: has there been a material increase in workload on the S&T side like there has been in IB that your work-life balance is almost nonexistent? 

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - FI
Jul 30, 2021 - 3:07pm

I really just started super recently so I am not the best person to ask but at least at my firm from people who I have talked to the volume of work in general has gone up significantly but also this is simply a function of increased deal flow (I am on a structuring desk). I think the expectations about when you are reachable have certainly gone up. People in pure sales or trading roles I don't think the increase has been extremely material but obviously there was some. The way I think about these roles is your job is a lot more centered around market hours. No trader ever gets staffed on a bake-off for some merger on a Friday at 4pm ya know. 

Oct 20, 2021 - 9:29pm
Ramo1456878, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Last year, the answer is yes. Market makers make money when the market is volatile and there are many conflicting views. This means banks see a decent amount of two-way flows and the spreads clients cross are wider. This was the situation in 2020, where every capital markets group essentially killed it. Hours weren't longer, but the days were much more intense. 2021 it's not the case as much, volatility is a bit lower and flows are a bit more one way.

Anyways, as I'm sure you've probably seen, S&T banks across the street have given their analysts (at least) raises. Most banks started by giving IB analysts raises, until JP decided to give both IB and WM raises. Capital markets was upset, JP had to give them a wage increase as well, and then the rest of the street followed. For what it's worth, JP fucked up, and I don't think I should've been given a raise...but I'll take it. 

Jul 30, 2021 - 6:48pm
Legion42, what's your opinion? Comment below:

There is a reason everyone knows the rainmaker Bankers, and no one can reference an amazing / rock star trader these days. Volcker rule killed S&T. 

Jul 31, 2021 - 1:08am
SwapArb, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Mark Spehn just earned Deutsche Bank $1 Billion on one trade (Zim Shipping), and he's hardly the only trader with a huge P&L (also see Tom Malafronte in junk bonds, and Anthony Dewell in energy, etc.). If that doesn't qualify as rock star, I don't know what to say. And he is hardly the only trader who has brought in 9 figure P&L. I challenge you to name a single banker who brought in anywhere close to this in the past decade. Just look at the regulatory disclosures for highest paid employees, its mostly star traders, not bankers. And many of the best leave for hedge funds like Citadel, and Capula, or start their own for true outliers.

Jul 31, 2021 - 1:24am
SwapArb, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Investment banking may or may not be better for the average analyst (hours are much worse and less interesting, exit ops outside of finance are better, job security is probably better), but rockstar traders make much more than "rockstar" bankers, are promoted younger (Kunal Shah joined goldman rates trading, made md by 27, partner by 31), and bring in more P&L (and at most banks, its fixed income trading that brings in the most revenue, not M&A advisory, both in terms of revenue share, and especially in terms of revenue per head).

  • VP in S&T - FI
Aug 1, 2021 - 12:53pm

Kunal started trading back in 2004, it says something that your example happened over a decade ago.

It's much easier to rise to the top when the industry is expanding, with new desks being created and new products to trade. That's where the opportunity to prove yourself comes from. In my opinion, S&T has probably stopped shrinking, but it's not growing and there's lots of sr talent ahead of you. 
 

  • Junior Trader in S&T - Comm
Aug 11, 2021 - 9:06am

LOL have you read about other kinds of S&T? Physical trading has blown the "conventional" kind of S&T that you are most likely talking about out of the water in the last few years. Read about the top phys trading shops.

  • VP in S&T - FI
Aug 13, 2021 - 5:39pm

LOL at thinking you don't run into the same issues on the physical side. 
 

lots of underpaid juniors, and people who don't start making real money until 15 years into their career. 

  • Analyst 1 in HF - EquityHedge
Aug 2, 2021 - 3:40pm

With GS raising AN1 level to 110k (other BBs likely to follow), it would be kind of crazy if Markets roles are still at 85k lol.

Sep 3, 2021 - 11:20pm
tankuanhian, what's your opinion? Comment below:

GS and MS markets both actually. and Baml/JPM both at 100k right now. imagine working at somewhere like citi/barclays (both haven't raised at all) and getting paid 40% less. totally cucked

Aug 2, 2021 - 4:02pm
Legion42, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Also how is cash equities all programmed? If an Iran tanker carrying oil gets blown up, how will the program know to buy energy stocks? Is that condition programmed in ? 

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 4, 2021 - 11:15am

The base pay disparity existed long ago in associates and above level. Now it just spreads down to analysts. 

Don't think banks will match pay in the short term.

Aug 9, 2021 - 3:38pm
Let's see Paul Allen's card, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Lol I'd imagine they would eventually. I feel like IBD just gets way more attention overall so it's harder to find this stuff out for GMD or S&T 

  • Intern in S&T - FI
Aug 13, 2021 - 1:00pm

GS about to come in and big dick em

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - FI
Aug 22, 2021 - 9:03pm

Do these analyst pumps insinuate pumps at higher levels like associate level? They wouldnt have analysts making nearly as much as the associates right?

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Aug 13, 2021 - 4:47pm

Wells only raised IB junior pay. S&T interns got their return offers today at 85k. 

  • Prospect in S&T - Other
Aug 16, 2021 - 8:11pm

Still potential for that to change though, no?

  • Prospect in S&T - FI
Aug 14, 2021 - 7:10pm

Does anyone know analyst 1 salary in S&T in London? And what will be the new amount after the increase (BofA for example)?

  • Intern in S&T - FI
Oct 4, 2021 - 5:42am

How is GS 70k for IBD? All my IBD friends said 65

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Aug 16, 2021 - 10:25pm

Prop trading is still very alive at these banks. Plus we have to be on the ball the entire time we're in the office - can't afford to have any downtime like bankers usually do

  • Prospect in S&T - Other
Aug 20, 2021 - 8:50pm

Could we expect other banks that raised IBD salary to follow suit?

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - FI
Aug 25, 2021 - 2:18pm

awesome. do you think citi will go all out and raise to 110k or maybe 115k? theyre killing it lately....

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 25, 2021 - 11:06pm

Hey Barclays, where you at...don't make us jump to Citi, or worse, CS....

  • VP in S&T - FI
Aug 26, 2021 - 9:42pm

The others will most likely wait until closer to the end of the year (when promotions get announced) or after bonuses are announced, S&T does not pay/promote its analysts at mid-year like IB does.  I think analysts and associates get a bump in base but it will come out of bonus especially once trading revenues return to more normal levels.                  

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 26, 2021 - 10:00pm

Personally, would rather higher base lower bonus (assuming net same) - allows me to budget more, easier for taxes, 401k etc

Meaning, I'd rather 100+20 than 85+35 (but yes, I'd rather 85+50 than 100+20)

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 26, 2021 - 10:04pm
  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 26, 2021 - 10:05pm

If I'm a college sophomore, why would I ever do S&T if you're getting less bonus, and less base, and shrinking industry?

They'll need to raise S&T base to match IB base just to get decent applications and talent. STEM majors going to BigTech take away a lot more from S&T than from IB with the Finance and Econ majors 

Aug 27, 2021 - 12:07am
Thunderfin, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Because they get near-the-same total comp working 75% or fewer of the hours as people in IB.  Despite having technical skills, there may also be many students who are not good enough to pass FAANG-type interviews at tech companies.  IB's offer finance jobs where technical competencies can be utilized.  Seems like a win-win.

Don't kid yourself -- the whole finance industry is "shrinking", stagnating at best.

  • VP in S&T - FI
Aug 27, 2021 - 5:57pm

Most sell side traders and salespeople are finance and econ majors who like markets and enjoy the environment that a trading floor offers.  They may be able to do some basic programming but that is not what is going to determine if they can succeed or not on the floor.  You are totally right that banks are not getting the STEM kids like they used to but that is more of a function of lack of innovation due to the regulatory environment than comp.  Banks are not innovative like they were pre-crisis and they generally lag in terms of technology.  If you are a talented STEM kid you are going to have a ton of places to use your skills in a more interesting way than a bank, that was not necessarily the case pre-crisis.  You are also right that the business is not growing but the industry as a whole is not exactly in "growth" mode.     

In S&T you don't hire analysts because they can do analyst work, you hire them because you think they can become a revenue generator within a couple of years and that is how you get paid in S&T.  In banking most of the analysts leave after 2 years and even fewer of them actually stick it out until director or MD when you actually have a revenue number next to your name.  The banking analyst should get paid more, its more hours and what is done by the banking analyst is actually valuable to the transaction process vs an S&T analyst who is doing the grunt work and being paid to learn. 

If you are trying to optimize for income early in your career you should be a banker/PE but if you want to make a nice living, get some autonomy early in your career (most associates have their own trading books/client lists and only have to do a bit of grunt work from time to time) and actually have a life then S&T might be a better fit for you.  The people that stick around in S&T are not the type of people who would even consider banking no matter how much more it pays at the junior level.  Not saying one is better than the other but they attract very different personality types.            

  • Intern in S&T - FI
Aug 27, 2021 - 8:02pm

Agree with all of the above but will note that at my US BB (GS/MS) most new hires and interns are from a STEM background. These are kids with the best grades from Ivys/Oxbridge, but just prefer to have a social overlay to technical work which in S&T you get like nowhere else.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 31, 2021 - 1:27pm

Well, then I know where I'd be switching after a year....

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 31, 2021 - 1:27pm

No word, have to assume associates did, otherwise they'd be making the same base

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - FI
Aug 31, 2021 - 2:03pm

am i seeing this right? MS now paying AN1 traders 115k while IBD gets 110k? 

Sep 3, 2021 - 9:24pm
tutudhz, what's your opinion? Comment below:

really interested to see where the European banks stand... Talent will go to the American banks if they don't follow...

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Sep 4, 2021 - 1:27am

Tailwind for anyone going into S&T, really awesome news that these raises are happening.

Not saying it's a perfect role by any means, but you know a lot of WSO IBers were hoping banks wouldn't implement raises for junior talent in markets so they could jerk off over how S&T is dying and validate to themselves that they made the right decision. Fact is banks are putting their money where their mouth is and that says a lot about how these places see S&T as a business; I tend to err on the side of viewing that as validation instead of taking to heart what seniors in college who can only cope with working by 100+ hours by putting down other professions have to say about S&T.

  • Associate 1 in IB - Cov
Sep 4, 2021 - 1:07pm

I'm in IB and would like to switch to s&t, so I love seeing this. 

  • VP in S&T - FI
Sep 12, 2021 - 9:33pm

While I agree there is a ton of S&T hate on this form, calling this a tailwind for the business is a bit premature.  What you have so far is a couple of banks announcing increased junior pay that will most likely not be effective until 2022, not a wide spread pay increase across the street.  I do think all the other banks will follow suit, and will raise junior level S&T salaries to the levels that they are paying junior bankers but I don't think that means all that much until you start seeing bonuses for S&T at the junior levels. 

In terms of the bigger picture you really won't know much until banks start announcing compensation per person in various lines of business.  If the total comp pool is relatively unchanged and there is not increased hiring then I have a hard time calling this a tailwind for the business and more of just a standardizing of junior salaries across various functions at the firm.  Call me a skeptic but I am in wait and see mode.        

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Sep 13, 2021 - 9:28pm

Completely fair assessment.

I'm operating under the assumption that this will cascade across all BBs across the street and that it will lift total comp at the junior levels (with less of an effect the higher you go up the chain). Wait and see is definitely the best mentality here. However I will say it's much better than if IB got these raises and S&T didn't (which was the fear for a hot second there).

Sep 5, 2021 - 8:11am
kboa142, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Could someone confirm if internal announcements have been made yet?

I'm in one of the firms that raised pay but haven't heard anything

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - FI
Sep 16, 2021 - 9:27am

Nothing at barx yet, unfortunately...

Where tf my money at?!

Sep 10, 2021 - 9:14pm
johnapple, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Anyone have any news for UK offices for S&T (trading specifically) in banks? Doesn't seem like salary raises have transferred over from US yet??

  • Intern in S&T - Other
Sep 22, 2021 - 6:17am

Just signed an ft offer letter/contract at one of the BBs that didnt/hasnt announced S&T raises (European BBs/Citi), the offer is still at the old levels (USD85k/GBP50k). Just wondering if yall think there's a chance that they might still give us a raise before we start in 2022? Or is the contract definitely final?

  • Prospect in S&T - FI
Sep 22, 2021 - 9:49am

curious as well, highly doubt that they'll stay at 85k, especially Citi with the new CEO, I expect them to bump to 100k, which is on par with what they did for their bankers.

  • Analyst 1 in ER
Sep 28, 2021 - 5:28am

Signed an FT offer with one of the BBs that has raised and I still got the old salary on the letter. I asked about it and they basically said "we'll let you know".

  • Prospect in PropTrad
Sep 27, 2021 - 11:45pm

If other BBs raise as well, when do yall think they would do it?

  • Prospect in S&T - FI
Oct 19, 2021 - 3:27pm

huh! that's weird. Given how the management appears as people focused and all that. must be awkward to be the only BB still at 85k or maybe they'll later come in BSD at 110-120k?

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Oct 15, 2021 - 9:19am

I'm at Barclays, haven't heard anything. Hey HR, people aren't happy about it...

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Oct 18, 2021 - 8:13pm

If Nomura switched, Barclays, DB have to get a move on...yikes...

Jan 24, 2022 - 3:46pm
scottsmithsonian, what's your opinion? Comment below:

i'm still looking for new assoc/vp bases too

Array
  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Oct 26, 2021 - 10:21pm

Wrong forum - can't really prop trade other than treasuries and agency MBS, maybe one other I'm forgetting about...

Distressed debt desk is coveted amongst the SA's to rotate with. If CLO and other Structured Credit sit in S&T, those are pretty good seats and the big firms. HY and LevLoans are popular in the HF/CLO world, IG and HY are big on the asset manager side (Pimco, blackrock)

Each product is different, have to do what you find interesting, understand, and will be good at. HY is different than FX, but if you're the head of either one you'll be clearing 1mm per year easy.

At the end of the day, if you're the best trader or head of the desk in anything you'll make more than a mediocre VP trading the 'best' product.  

Funniest
  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Oct 27, 2021 - 10:03pm

Why would Citi raise? They have a racial audit to do; stop being so selfish! 
 

In all seriousness, they sent an internal email about it. To reverse the pay gap, they decided new An1 S&T would be $100k for women and $79k for men. 

  • Intern in S&T - FI
Oct 28, 2021 - 5:31am

Who the fuck would join Citi/Barclays when you could make 20% at a better name brand and bank in Ms/Jp/Gs. GG with the talent war lol. Even more important for S&T than IB considering we aren't ppt monkeys

  • Prospect in CorpDev
Dec 10, 2021 - 10:07am

Big question for all the london markets analysts:

What is expected % base bonus for An 1 (not stub, full year)?

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jan 13, 2022 - 3:26pm

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Jan 13, 2022 - 3:28pm

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  • Analyst 1 in Research - Other
Jan 13, 2022 - 4:25pm

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Jan 14, 2022 - 2:14pm
ParkJiSung777, what's your opinion? Comment below:

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Jan 14, 2022 - 12:32pm
tutudhz, what's your opinion? Comment below:

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  • Prospect in S&T - Equities
Jan 18, 2022 - 12:15am

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  • Analyst 3+ in S&T - FI
Jan 18, 2022 - 4:12pm

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Jan 18, 2022 - 11:23am
Legion42, what's your opinion? Comment below:

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