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Renege offer - pros and cons?

J23217's picture
Rank: Senior Chimp | 27

To give you a little background, I completed a Big 4 audit internship last winter and subsequently accepted a full time job offer to begin next August. I continued my job search despite accepting the offer (after all, what do they expect us to do with a year between the internship and start date) and I got offered a job as an analyst in Corporate Banking at a large bank with better pay/much more exciting work of course. My question is, should I renege on the Big 4 acceptance? If so, how do I go about doing this and what types of consequences are typically associated with this?

Comments (215)

Dec 14, 2016

If you don't want to pursue a career in auditing (and I can't blame you), I'd renege. Call the HR person who recruited you and let them know that you want to pursue a career in a different area. Be gracious for their offer and apologetic to renege, but firm in your decision. Honestly the big 4 recruits so many new hires that some are expected to renege; they won't be happy about it, but you and the firm will both be fine.

As far as consequences, that big 4 firm likely won't consider you for employment again and maybe there will be some repercussions at your school's career office, but if you know you want to take the corp. banking offer, these shouldn't matter.

Dec 14, 2016

Thanks for the reply! I think the most uncomfortable part for me will be telling this to my engagement team that I worked with but I definitely want to pursue banking as a career. I have heard some horror stories about reneging but I really doubt the validity of some that I have heard.

Dec 14, 2016

Search.

Dec 14, 2016

That greatly depends on the BB/EB and the city they are in. If you expanded on the above people would have an easier time advising you.

Dec 14, 2016

Go with culture?

Dec 14, 2016

Yes, nobody will care. They might be pissed off for a very short time but nobody will remember in the long run.

Dec 14, 2016

I accepted offer from one of the three: CS, JPM, Citi. The EB is Blackstone. Does this make any difference?

Dec 14, 2016

u should edit this bud, take out BX

Dec 14, 2016

u should edit this bud, take out BX

Dec 14, 2016

going to assume that the offer is from JPM, considering CS and Citi aren't usually placed in the same league. That being said, both banks are solid so I think it would come down to culture and personal preference. If you honestly think you'll like BX more, and think it has a better brand name, then go with it. Going off a hunch here, but I feel like you already have your mind made up on reneging and going BX.

Dec 14, 2016

take my advice with a grain of salt (incoming GS IB SA):

If this is JPM, I'd take JPM. If it's Citi/CS, I'd take BX but purely for exit opps.

I've never understood the draw of BX M&A. The only reason it drew top candidates is because it was associated with its parent firm, Blackstone. The practice in itself is nothing to sneeze at, but there's also nothing overly impressive about it either. I've never heard of BX M&A being on any large deal, and going through their tombstones, it doesn't seem they even do those. With the spin off, any irrational draw to the firm should slowly fade away. BX Restructuring has always been top of the line, and of course its PE business is as good as any, but M&A, not so much.

The kids at my school with BX offers this year are nowhere near as impressive as those in the past, maybe this is an indication that times have changed. The impressive guys are going straight to the buy side.

Now, PJT might come in and make this shop comparable to an Evercore/LAZ, which is great. You'd get to be on impressive and meaningful deals, but even then, that transition will take time and being an SA now, I don't think you'd get that experience as an analyst before jumping to the buy side (if that's what you want). JPM will open most if not all the doors that BX M&A would open for you (as long as you don't work in MidCap or something), and I think you'd get to work on more exciting deals.

Personally, I had contacts at BX and never even asked for an accelerated interview after I got my GS offer for the above reasons. The GS (and in your case JPM) name will open doors outside of finance if that's something you'd also like to pursue.

Again, just my 2 cents.

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Dec 14, 2016
beynesian:

take my advice with a grain of salt (incoming GS IB SA):

If this is JPM, I'd take JPM. If it's Citi/CS, I'd take BX but purely for exit opps.

I've never understood the draw of BX M&A. The only reason it drew top candidates is because it was associated with its parent firm, Blackstone. The practice in itself is nothing to sneeze at, but there's also nothing overly impressive about it either. I've never heard of BX M&A being on any large deal, and going through their tombstones, it doesn't seem they even do those. With the spin off, any irrational draw to the firm should slowly fade away. BX Restructuring has always been top of the line, and of course its PE business is as good as any, but M&A, not so much.

The kids at my school with BX offers this year are nowhere near as impressive as those in the past, maybe this is an indication that times have changed. The impressive guys are going straight to the buy side.

Now, PJT might come in and make this shop comparable to an Evercore/LAZ, which is great. You'd get to be on impressive and meaningful deals, but even then, that transition will take time and being an SA now, I don't think you'd get that experience as an analyst before jumping to the buy side (if that's what you want). JPM will open most if not all the doors that BX M&A would open for you (as long as you don't work in MidCap or something), and I think you'd get to work on more exciting deals.

Personally, I had contacts at BX and never even asked for an accelerated interview after I got my GS offer for the above reasons. The GS (and in your case JPM) name will open doors outside of finance if that's something you'd also like to pursue.

Again, just my 2 cents.

I completely agree with this. Almost did a little fist pump. I had a strong process running at BX, but I ended it before my super day after I received GS/MS/JPM for the exact same reasons. On this forum it seems to be a sin punishable by death to say BX isn't the greatest thing since human consciousness. I didn't end the BX process to be a contrarian; instead, I realized that their M&A practice is actually comparatively weak in the face of GS/MS/JPM in both deal flow and deal volume. I noticed the same anecdotal trend as beynesian as well - the 2 kids that went BX from my school were actually much weaker candidates than the ones that outright accepted at GS/MS/JPM/EVR. And on top of that, the brand name no longer has the same certainty that it used to. I'm more than confident that PJT will be excellent. It may even surpass BX - but there IS uncertainty.

If it is JPM that you have, I would heavily consider keeping it. If it is Citi/CS, then of course renege and take BX (just make sure it is ok with BX before you do it).

Something to think about.

Dec 14, 2016

Reneg. Very little downside, and consider the exposure to RXing and M&A you'll get vs. a BB.

Dec 14, 2016

That isn't how they are structured. They split advisory and restruvtuting, unlike some other boutiques who lump them all in 1 bucket.

Dec 14, 2016

At PJT you have the opportunity to be part of something more exciting than GS/MS/JPM. That would be enough for me but for you it depends on your risk preference.

Dec 14, 2016

This is not the time to gamble. PJT could bust, and then where will you be? (Note i doubt this is the outcome but worth considering.) JPM is solid. No question here. It isn't even Blackstone - it's PJT Partners - so the allure of the Blackstone brand is now gone which was the only reason we all circle jerked to it. Now, at best, it is one of the bottomEBs (at least until PJT can prove successful). PM me as I went through a similar GS/MS/JPM v BX offer situation and will explain why this is a no brainer, especially since it's PJT now.

Dec 14, 2016

Why are people shitting on BX? They still get great looks from the buyside and although they do smaller deals, there are certainty smart people and firms know it.

When M&A is spun off to PJT, anyone whose anyone in finance will know it was formerly Blackstone and will keep that reputation for at least the next several years. Therefore, as an SA, your life isn't radically different nor your exit ops. People can say deal flow or deal size anyday, but if you want to jump to PE or HF, Blackstone gets some of the best placement on a per class basis.

Dec 14, 2016

I find the sudden shitting on BX pretty hilarious, but I guess it's good that we have an incoming BB SA to fill us in on the matter.

Networks don't die overnight, and I think network has always been the appeal of BX advisory, both M&A and R&R. I don't see the recruiting channels in place closing that quickly. Finance recruiting at BX, particularly for HFs, has been head and shoulders above almost everything outside of top GS/MS groups.

Dec 14, 2016

I find it pretty unfortunate that you are unable to distinguish between correlation and causation. I'm only replying to this to save other readers from continuing the traditional WSO BX circle jerk.

Working at BX will NEVER get you an offer at a top buy-side firm. It will get you interviews, yes, but not offers. Getting an offer is always more dependent on how strong the candidate really is, not the firm he/she is from. The distinction here is between JPM and BX, and the looks you'd get out of JPM don't pale significantly from those you'd get at BX.

Let's take a step back and ask ourselves the important question: Why, as you say, is it that "Finance recruiting at BX, particularly for HFs, has been head and shoulders above almost everything outside of top GS/MS groups." Simple answer: the candidates that have traditionally gone to BX have been head and shoulders above those at other groups.

Now, let's face the facts: BX M&A has never been as good as Evercore, Lazard, Moelis, Centerview, etc. People coming in from B-School as associates have known this for a while, and have shunned BX for the aforementioned; it seems that undergrads are the only ones who hold on. Now, BX M&A no longer hides behind the bigger name, Blackstone. As another user stated, it now becomes one of those EBs, and perhaps not as good as any of the aforementioned.

My reason for going JPM: You will get the same looks that PJT Partners will, and will be working at a place with better senior people, who get better deals on the table. If we're talking about network, it's hilarious to think that JPM's is anything below BX's - JPM has a larger analyst class: even if BX M&A places 10 out of its 20 analysts in MFs, you'd be hard pressed to find JPM does not place 10 out of its 80 in MFs.

The key here is to understand, in the end, that BX M&A never really "places" its analysts anywhere. Rather, it's the individual's own abilities that is most important, especially when he/she works at an elite place like JPM.

Dec 14, 2016

-Agreed, working at any group only gets you interviews.
-Disagree that JPM and BX looks are comparable, especially for HFs. I think about 0% of the JPM class interviews at Eton Park and Baupost.
-I'd choose most of the EBs you mentioned over an unknown group at JPM if I were someone interested in staying in finance
-Network density is important.

Dec 14, 2016

i don't see how meeting w/ them face to face will make it less awkward

to minimize damage

email/call HR and the hiring MD ASAP so they can get onto hiring another analyst

Dec 14, 2016

Agreed.. I doubt they will want to meet with you face to face or go to lunch/diner/coffee.. The fact is these things happen, and while you have every right to change your mind and do what is best for you(and should do what is best for you). The smartest way to handle this situation is for you to be as professional and respectable about it and to follow 7S's advice..

Dec 14, 2016

Haha, I would love to see you have lunch with them: you would let them know that you are reneging within the first ten minutes and then have the most akward 40 minutes of your life waiting for food and eating it. Seriously dude, do not do lunch.

Dec 14, 2016

Don't be an idiot. Just call up HR and the hiring MD (if you had a lot of contact with them) and say that you regret to do this, but you have decided to go another way.

There is no way to do this without at least burning a few bridges. That firm will know what you did and keep a record. Also the HR people will definitely spread it to other firms, so I really hope you never have to lateral.

You better make sure you really want to do this.

Dec 14, 2016

Thanks for the responses.

The reason why I wanted to meet with them is because I was quite close with them (did a SA stint with them) and thought the awkwardness wasn't going to be much of a problem. But I can see how this can go wrong and I think I'll spare myself and the team from the trouble.

I plan to call and e-mail (they will ask for written form anyway) the HR to renege officially as soon as I go over the new offer contract and sign.

I think I still should be e-mailing the team members, though. As I've said, we had a good relationship during my SA stint and they will understand that I was compelled to safeguard myself given the circumstances (my offer with them had been deferred, and the market condition back then was not looking good particularly for this firm). Is this still a bad idea? These people supported me during the SA period when I had a very difficult time out of work (family matter), and I know a lot of people say that this industry is cut-throat and no one gives a shit, but I do feel a sense of connection with them and I really want to maintain a friendly relationship with them...

Dec 14, 2016

t

Dec 14, 2016

omg... summer analyst!

Dec 14, 2016

Summer Analyst

Dec 14, 2016

will be funny if the bank that gave u an offer even though they know you already signed with another bank with reneg on you. After all it shows that neither you nor the other bank have any morals.

good luck either way LOL

Dec 14, 2016

Well they won't be rescinding my offer or firing me if I don't do something very wrong, in which case, it's really not about morals and more about my performance.

I am wondering how the phone conversation would go when I tell the HR that I'm going to have to renege.
I am quite certain that they will be asking me for the reason. Should I be completely honest and tell them about the other offer I am taking, or should I give them the holy grail of all non-answer - "personal reasons"?

Dec 14, 2016

I would NOT tell them where you are going.

Dec 14, 2016

You could go jeffrey chiang on their asses and tell them you have some urgent family business and will be out of the country for 3 months.

Dec 14, 2016

Christmas gift wtf is that? invite them to the strip club, get the MD a double lap dance and when both asses are in his face, tell him. I am sure he will just say oh ok, good luck.

Dec 14, 2016

LOL

Dec 14, 2016

adehbone got it right ! ahaha
Christmas gift...why not a blowjob when you have lunch with them ? dude get real...
1) make your choice and understand that lateral to this bank will be nearly impossible in the future..
2) call HR people and bankers involved on the recruiting process to explain the situation and that's it !

Dec 14, 2016

what year in school are you? are you at a target?

Dec 14, 2016

'super' non-target. Junior.

Dec 14, 2016

.

Dec 14, 2016

What type of boutique are we talking? If 4-5 man shop with mediocre deal flow, then just stick out F100.

If Evercore, Moellis level, then drop it quick.

Would guess it is the former, but you never know.

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Dec 14, 2016
peinvestor2012:

What type of boutique are we talking? If 4-5 man shop with mediocre deal flow, then just stick out F100.

If Evercore, Moellis level, then drop it quick.

Would guess it is the former, but you never know.

Former. Boutique has 4 locations throughout U.S, but the office I'm gonna be is about a 6-7man team.

Dec 14, 2016

do you get ocr for any jobs you want for FT? You may get banned from your OCR, so keep this in mind

Dec 14, 2016
jasper90:

do you get ocr for any jobs you want for FT? You may get banned from your OCR, so keep this in mind

Yea, but the F100 I have is really the only good company that comes to our school. Literally every business major tries for it.. and they only pick 1 intern and 1 full-time lol ... we are really just their school for recruiting 'minorities'.

Dec 14, 2016

is the F100 internship corporate development by chance? What sort of internship is this?

Dec 14, 2016

.

"I'm into, uh, well, murders and executions, mostly."

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Dec 14, 2016

if the f100 company really does only take 1 a year, you're gonna f**k your school
they may never come back to recruit again

but dont let that influence your decision... (:

Dec 14, 2016
BankorBust:

if the f100 company really does only take 1 a year, you're gonna f**k your school
they may never come back to recruit again

but dont let that influence your decision... (:

Wow, imagine knowing that one made their non-target just a bit more non-target"er". That said, put yourself first go for gold!

Dec 14, 2016

This is why you should stop recruiting after you accept an offer... so you don't have to go through these sorts of choices.

My vote is against reneging - the difference isn't worth the potential OCR ban. Then again, if you are at a non-target, your OCR may be pretty useless anyways.

Dec 14, 2016

How amenable are you to F100 internship -> F100 FT -> MBA -> Name-brand IBD?

P.S. - "Renege".

Dec 14, 2016
Angus Macgyver:

How amenable are you to F100 internship -> F100 FT -> MBA -> Name-brand IBD?

P.S. - "Renege".

Actually, MBA is my ultimate goal, but I've heard HORRIBLE things about post MBA IB. I'm just doing IB to exit into a corporate role (non-entry level role)

Dec 14, 2016

Renege -- you are wasting your time and the F100 company's time if you do not want to work there post-graduation. Sure, you might burn some OCR bridges, but if your ultimate goal is IBD this is a real no-brainer, especially as a junior at a non-target.

Dec 14, 2016

If you want to do corporate ultimately why are you considering IB when you already have a F100 locked? OCR at non-target is generally useless in my opinion anyways so I wouldn't let that be a huge influence

Dec 14, 2016
amach3:

If you want to do corporate ultimately why are you considering IB when you already have a F100 locked?

^

Dec 14, 2016

I really think you should stick with your F100 if your goal is Corp Dev. I don't see a whole lot of value in suffering through 2 years of IB at a small boutique, only to do Corp Dev and then MBA. I agree IB experience on your resume may be impressive when interviewing for your next Corp Dev job, but nobody is going to make you a group head or CFO/VP of Bus Dev after 2 years as an IB analyst. Plus, the above commenter makes a good point that you could be competing against BB IB analysts as well, especially for those top F30 opptys.

If you have any interest in IB, then I rest my case. Renege. Otherwise - as you've represented - if doing IB is purely for the sake of getting a non-entry level Corp Dev job...I'm not sure it's worth it. An MBA will probably get you there faster.

Dec 14, 2016
beezle:

I really think you should stick with your F100 if your goal is Corp Dev. I don't see a whole lot of value in suffering through 2 years of IB at a small boutique, only to do Corp Dev and then MBA. I agree IB experience on your resume may be impressive when interviewing for your next Corp Dev job, but nobody is going to make you a group head or CFO/VP of Bus Dev after 2 years as an IB analyst. Plus, the above commenter makes a good point that you could be competing against BB IB analysts as well, especially for those top F30 opptys.

If you have any interest in IB, then I rest my case. Renege. Otherwise - as you've represented - if doing IB is purely for the sake of getting a non-entry level Corp Dev job...I'm not sure it's worth it. An MBA will probably get you there faster.

Thanks for the input fellas

Dec 14, 2016

'Ethical' - you're considering the wrong line of business, my friend...

Dec 14, 2016

I didn't mean for this to break out into a ethics debate, so lets try to limit that. I completely understand how your job can be taken away from you just as easily.

OK if we take the ethics out of the equation, and look at it from a purely selfish standpoint--

What are the implications?

And is it wise to break from a contract with less than one-month to go before start date?

Bear in mind, this is an internship and I still have another summer to go which means my odds will be one bank short next time around.

Dec 14, 2016

If there isn't a huge difference, like night vs day, then I'd say to stick it out at this point.

Dec 14, 2016

If you've currently got a BO gig lined up, and something FO came up, I'd say definitely renege. Working in the front office will serve you much better in the long run - you'll be glad you did.

  • Capt K
Dec 14, 2016

just an update:

ultimately i decided not to renege because the benefit just doesn't outweigh the risks entailed. would hate to get bballed so early in my career and i never know if it will come around to bite me in the ass.

not to try and seek validation, but please feel free to post your thoughts on the topic

Dec 14, 2016

You should take front-office...

Companies can fire their employees whenever, I don't think you should be held to a higher standard (unless the bank you renege on is a core BB...in that case maybe...)

Dec 14, 2016

You really should renege and take the FO. You're only an intern and probably not that important to the group; not to mention very replaceable. Conversely, the FO job will be much more benefitial to your short and long term career. The BO group probably wouldn't even mind realizing that you would probably learn more in the FO.

Renegeing to switch from on FO to another banks FO may stir the pot but most likely no one would really care.

This is a very hard concept for young people to grasp (I myself was at one point guilty of it) but there are no loyalties in the job market. A company will chew you up and spit you out and you must have a similar mind set. No need to be loyal to something that isn't loyal to you. Just as when it doesn't make financial sence to maintain you as an employee...you should no longer maintain them as an empolyer when it doesn't make sense to you.

Dec 14, 2016

is this for summer for full time? in any event, the risk outweighs the gain in almost all cases. finance is a VERY small world, and everyone knows everyone else. your reputation is greater than a couple thousand at the end of your paycheck and the prestige.

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Dec 14, 2016

Depends on who you ask....agreed it's probably not worth it for a small difference in prestige/exit ops etc, but if it's huge then maybe you should consider it - especially if you've only agreed verbally and haven't signed a contract. The above is a dire warning - if you're an incoming first year analyst or SA, especially in the US where there is a lot of turnover at the junior level, people will forget about you very quickly - you are simply not that important. Everyone definitely does NOT know everyone else, and while it's unethical and not ideal, in some cases it can be worth it for sure.

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Dec 14, 2016
notthehospitalER:

Depends on who you ask....agreed it's probably not worth it for a small difference in prestige/exit ops etc, but if it's huge then maybe you should consider it - especially if you've only agreed verbally and haven't signed a contract. The above is a dire warning - if you're an incoming first year analyst or SA, especially in the US where there is a lot of turnover at the junior level, people will forget about you very quickly - you are simply not that important. Everyone definitely does NOT know everyone else, and while it's unethical and not ideal, in some cases it can be worth it for sure.

SB for you, sir. I can definitely see that line of logic there. I'll retract my original statement, but I just say that based on what happened to a friend of mine. (signed on for a BB offer, reneged after he got one of GS/MS/JPM. the other firm found out and he got his offer retracted.) Granted it, worked out for him at the end, but just don't want the OP do get screwed over by reneging. Its a rather precarious scenario at times.

Ha, first MS that i got hit with. Was hoping to ride out the clean streak for awhile. ah well lol

Dec 14, 2016

There is likely no harm in taking the interview with the other firm - only really becomes an issue if you end up with an offer.

Source: I know someone who reneged and it worked out just fine (arguably, well).

Dec 14, 2016

Not a huge deal in my opinion. You need to just run a risk/reward analysis. How much better is the new firm? If you interview and Firm A finds out, you'll lose the Firm A offer. If you end up getting Firm B, however, it doesn't matter. But is Firm B worth the risk?

People don't care as much as you'd think. It happens 50+ times per year, and people forget quickly. It's not like every time we go out or have free time we sit around and chat about the college kids we don't like.

Dec 14, 2016

My two cents - if it's for summer, work where you got the offer the first time and then try again at your top firm for Full Time recruiting. If it's FT, harder choice.

Dec 14, 2016

I had this same problem last year. I verbally committed but never signed anything. I then heard back from my #1 with an offer. Its obviously not good form, and your most likely blacklisted from that bank, but in the end you need to do whats best for you and your career

Dec 14, 2016

passing resume along doesn't mean you'll get the offer. Wait until you have the offer, then decide.

Dec 14, 2016
tchekm845:

passing resume along doesn't mean you'll get the offer. Wait until you have the offer, then decide.

didn't see this...unfortunately the commercial bank put a decision deadline on me within the next 2 weeks, cs doesn't officially begin recruiting until January. I'm gonna ask for more time but I can only push it back so long

Dec 14, 2016

Look out for yourself, if commercial banking isn't something you want to do, then why waste time pursuing it.

Do whats in your best interest and things will fall into place.

What division is this with the BB.

Dec 14, 2016

Look out for yourself first. Don't buy into whatever BS your school's career office is feeding you about reneging. If times were bad the bank wouldn't think twice about renegging on you.

Dec 14, 2016

^^^Exactly.

Just think a year from now. That bank will not even remotely remember your name, or care that someone reneged on them, OR you will be doing a job you don't want to do all because you were scared/apprehensive to go after what you truly wanted(BB in this case)

Dec 14, 2016

I was thinking the same...if I renege, I renege and to just deal with it

However, will there be any consequence other than the bank gettin annoyed?

@Revolution - it's a private banking internship. I don't mind the sales, in fact I prefer it to the alternatives. I know I'll get to experience in sales in commercial banking, but i feel like name brand is more important here

Dec 14, 2016

career services tell you not to renege only because it makes them/your school look bad

Dec 14, 2016

accept then renege. it is fucking simple. just man up and make sure the regional bank doesnt know where u are headed.

Dec 14, 2016

Dood - you're reneging on an offer, not killing someone.

The answers to your questions is no no and no. You're being silly.

A firm isn't going to go out of its way to sabotage you.

Dec 14, 2016

Are you sure? I've heard otherwise! nervous laugh

Dec 14, 2016

I'm going to take your school example here.. how the HELL would they know what kinda school you are going to apply to? What, you think they got the adcom of harvard and stanford on speeddial and everytime someone renegs, they say.. "Hey.. don't ever let Ovechkin into the school because he reneged!"

Dec 14, 2016

Ok - I have a question - What would be the case if someone signed an IB contract, received the sign on bonus and later down the line (before their start date) was made an offer from a better firm?

Would it be looked down upon to reneg on the contract? Of course the sign on would have to be paid back but is the common?

Dec 14, 2016

i've heard otherwise as well---though it's more likely that the firm may contact the school you currently go to (or where you went to undergrad) and your school will kick you off their campus recruiting system

but i wouldn't think that grad schools wouldn't be notified---like tylder said, how would they even know?

Dec 14, 2016

It probably says "at will employment." That means either party may terminate at any time.

Also, if they did something like this, they probably could get sued. Their lawyers would tell them it is not worth the risk.

Dec 14, 2016

When you pay back a bonus, you have to pay back the tax that was withheld.

Dec 14, 2016

There was no bonus involved. This was an operations position - making it all the less likely for them to torpedo me ....... right? ;)

Dec 14, 2016

why not accept with the energy company? and if you get a FT offer from the bank you could weigh your options?

Dec 14, 2016

I've been trying not to make reneging an option here, meaning that once I accept with the energy company, it's a done deal. Of course if I do that, I would then be upset if I like the bank more and get the offer in August.

Dec 14, 2016

Do what aachimp said.

Even if you're worried about reneging, you should still try to get a FT offer. You can then weigh your options with a strong slant toward turning down the bank and going for the energy company, unless you absolutely fall in love with the bank.

Dec 14, 2016

Accept the offer with BP, if you don't like it, then do the BB program.

Dec 14, 2016

Call Bank 2 and let them know you have an offer deadline for Bank 1...that should expedite the process.

Banks are usually accommodating about deadlines in my experience.

Dec 14, 2016

I say look out for yourself first. I see absolutely no problem with reneging, given current market situations. And if bank 1 refuses to extend a few days then fuck em. Accept and if something better comes along accept that and reneg. Think of all the BS and LB bankers who accepted offers and missed out on recruitment by other banks. Now they have nothing. I would honestly accept two offers and just wait to see which bank rescinds their offer. Being a dick these days might be the only way to ensure your future. As far as career services goes, when and if you Reneg, make up a story that somebody is sick and you need to take care of them and can't accept. Come up with a good story and they are not going to contact your career center. Besides, if you wait to reneg until after recruiting season what can they do to you? Ban you from campus recruiting? Too late!

Dec 14, 2016

hey Wachovia can renege, so can you!

Dec 14, 2016

don't do it -- if it's a tier 1 BB, why jump to another shop? exit opps will be marginally better at best

There's Goldman and then there's everything else.

Dec 14, 2016

How long is the for-sure offer at the BB on the table for? If it's not for long, then LOCK IT UP. Seriously, this is one of the worst job markets ever. Play it safe. You got an offer from a bulge bracket firm; be thankful.

Dec 14, 2016

well, it's for a well reputed group with work I'm more interested in....

I have it locked down, but I didn't expect a call back so late.

i'm playing it safe but hate those what if I had only.... games

Dec 14, 2016

Won't care.

Dec 14, 2016

Typically your reputation is only harmed with the firm you choose to renege upon. That might not be true if there was a particular person, perhaps at a more senior level, who really went out of their way to help you and you ended up dicking over by disappearing who you then encountered at another point down the road.

Dec 14, 2016

Sack up and reneg

Dec 14, 2016

this wouldn't happen. we only brought back 3 of 5 interns this summer - their internship ended the first week of August, we heard back from them over the next week, and 2 weeks later wrapped up FT recruiting for the 2 extra spots - candidate caliber might be lower since we aren't getting interns from top IBs, but we got the "best of the rest" since no other jobs recruit this early

Dec 14, 2016

What kind of question is this? If you like the BB offer, you renege and go with the BB offer. Were you planning on accepting both and working for both firms?

Dec 14, 2016

I do like the BB offer but how bad does it look to renege? Just worried if the Middle market firm gets mad and the BB resending offer if they find out.

Dec 14, 2016

This has probably been asked a thousand times on WSO before. The advice that most people give has always been and still is to renege, but be respectful while doing so.

Dec 14, 2016

But how do you be respectful when it's in the same location and same industry? Like idk how to go about doing that.

Dec 14, 2016

I'll offer a counterpoint from the WSO "renege" consensus. First of all, I agree that if your prospects are significantly better elsewhere, and you feel like you would be happier at the BB, take the BB offer. However, please consider the following. If you have gotten to know the people in the middle market boutique well, like the culture, the office has good deal flow, etc... and are weighing all of that versus a BB "name," I would caution you to reconsider. If you feel relatively the same way about both offices and the BB name is the tipping point, go for it.

Another broader point for the WSO populace reading this... I know some BB banks in regional markets have been known to blacklist entire schools because of a few candidates reneging in a row. For better or (likely) for worse, your actions do have a reflection on your school, especially if you are coming from a non-target. They might feel like they took a fly on you despite a non-target background, and if you renege they will just not bother in the future.

    • 1
Dec 14, 2016

Just be straight-forward. Tell them you have had something else come up that you just can't turn down. You only accepted last week so it shouldn't be too big of deal, but make sure to tell them that this just happened and you want to give them as much notice as possible. Absolutely do not tell them which bank you're going to unless you're willing to risk them making a few phone calls.

Dec 14, 2016

If you search what has been said before, there's two main views by senior posters:
Jimbo has said that employment at will works from both sides, so you should have no hesitation in reneging. GhengisKhan has said that a lot of people at banks are volatile and vengeful, and may try to torpedo someone who reneges by making a few phone calls. Bottom line is that reneging is not necessarily unethical, people do it all the time, and you may get away with it, but you're definitely taking a risk by doing it.

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Dec 14, 2016

It's unprofessional (unethical might be too strong) and it puts the reputation of yourself and your university at risk. Does the middle market shop you accepted at have any recruiting relationship with your university? If so, the shop will almost certainly tell your university career services center that you reneged on your offer and may threaten to pull recruiting altogether from your university, leaving them with a mess on their hands to clean up.

Dec 14, 2016

It's unprofessional (unethical might be too strong) and it puts the reputation of yourself and your university at risk. Does the middle market shop you accepted at have any recruiting relationship with your university? If so, the shop will almost certainly tell your university career services center that you reneged on your offer and may threaten to pull recruiting altogether from your university, leaving them with a mess on their hands to clean up.

Dec 14, 2016

The Mid-Market IBank has absolutely no ties to my school...I really appreciate everyones advice and if other people have anything to offer, please do..Thanks again.

Dec 14, 2016

Go for it. If we hit a recession do you think the bank will hesitate to lay you off?

Dec 14, 2016

I believe we will definitely hit a recession. Therefore, my advice is going to sound shocking to some.

Call the BB and accept. Keep both job offers close to your vest. Then about a month or so before you're supposed to start with the BB, reneg on the smaller bank. I fear that banks might reneg early candidate offers later anyway. Cover yourself.

Also, chill out about both offers. It's strategic, don't assume you can trust anyone and don't go bragging to folks about the BB or the smaller bank... you don't want to jinx anything.

Dec 14, 2016
aadpepsi:

I fear that banks might reneg early candidate offers later anyway. Cover yourself.

Could be true, the mm bank I will be working at said they will be looking for an additional hire possibly from candidates that get offers withdrawn from BBs.

Dec 14, 2016
aadpepsi:

I believe we will definitely hit a recession. Therefore, my advice is going to sound shocking to some.

aadpepsi:

Call the BB and accept. Keep both job offers close to your vest. Then about a month or so before you're supposed to start with the BB, reneg on the smaller bank. I fear that banks might reneg early candidate offers later anyway. Cover yourself.

aadpepsi:

Also, chill out about both offers. It's strategic, don't assume you can trust anyone and don't go bragging to folks about the BB or the smaller bank... you don't want to jinx anything.

Wow. I have to say, this takes some real cojones. And discipline. The part about the not-bragging would be the hardest part.

The more I think about it, I don't find this unprofessional or unethical. You will definitely burn a bridge, but I think it's an acceptable tradeoff, when you weigh all factors. Definitely handle with care.

I think Merrill should make aadpepsi their new CEO.

Dec 14, 2016
aadpepsi:

Call the BB and accept. Keep both job offers close to your vest. Then about a month or so before you're supposed to start with the BB, reneg on the smaller bank. I fear that banks might reneg early candidate offers later anyway. Cover yourself.

Terrific advice.

Dec 14, 2016

Wow, that's cold pepsi.

Dec 14, 2016

Why would BBs withdraw offers?

Pretty tough decision. they may bitc* to your school or even to your ibank if they find out

Dec 14, 2016

Aadpepsi is a cold hearted bitch.

And I like it. Next time I'm in NYC, I'm looking up "Aadpepsi" in the phonebook.

Seriously though, Aadpepsi...this summer.

Dec 14, 2016

Do you guys actually think BB will withdraw offers?

Can they do this even after you've signed papers?

Has anyone ever been effected by this or know anyone who has?

Dec 14, 2016

I think willingly accepting a second offer without notifying the first bank crosses the border of unethical and becomes fraudulent. You will have signed two legal documents knowing that they conflict with one another and that you can not possibly fulfill your responsibilities. Of course, no bank is going to come after you for it, but is this really the way you want to start your career? Besides, what the heck are you going to tell your friends? "I accepted a position, but I'm not going to tell you guys where!" You'll squeal to someone and your reputation will be tarnished.

Dec 14, 2016

BB's can withdraw offers if they want to. There's some fine print that doesnt legally bind them to you (just like you're not legally bound to them. You just have to give back your relo bonus). You could definitely sign up for one thing and end up doing something different (see Goldman's 2007 S&T analyst class).

It's honestly fine to reneg, IMHO. I know a few ppl back in school who ended up renegging on their offers b/c something better came around / they decided they didnt want to do banking and wanted consulting instead / decided they would rather go to Peace Corps or TFA. Be polite, and give them courtesy saying that after careful consideration, you've chosen an alternative route. They'll probably forget you in a week.

Dec 14, 2016

What happened with Goldman's 2007 S&T analyst class???

Dec 14, 2016

Some of them got put in ops.

Dec 14, 2016

Whaaaaat? They had signed papers to be in the sales and trading programand were put in ops?

How did that happen? What did they do???

Dec 14, 2016

In my mind, that's crossing the line and bordering on being unethical, especially when you pull out from the MM a month before you start. Reneging on that offer now, while never a favorable option, is more common and would be easier for you to deal with. If I were you, I would call up the MM place and let them know that you have decided to work somewhere else and be released from your contract. That's all you need to do and you can move on with your career. You are certainly going to burn that bridge, but they will be able to plug in another kid fairly quickly and you will be forgotten in a couple of days. I wouldn't worry too much about a BB reneging on your offer due to market conditions. I have heard about it happening before, but it's a fairly uncommon occurence. HR is also being extraordinarily conservative with their analyst numbers for next year's class for this exact reason. In the worst case scenario that you get dropped from the BB, you can still probably call other MM firms (not the one you reneged from) and let them know about your situation. They will be impressed that you had accepted an offer to work at a BB and might be willing to pick you up.

Dec 14, 2016

Well if you know you are going to do it (which appears to be the case), then the sooner the better. If you wait too long then it will be much more difficult to do and you will look worse in their eyes. Its only been a couple days since you accepted, so they know a lot of people are probably uncertain about whether they made the right move or not. Youre not alone. Also, there are other candidates who would probably kill for that position, and the longer you wait the more you are screwing over those guys. You have the offer you want why stand in the way of someone else landing a job as well? Im sure some people on here will say "screw everyone else, who cares about them", but most of us can probably relate to those kids dying to land a job in this industry.

Oh, and if telling them the truth is too hard just tell them you were recently in a car accident, had a near death experience, and now must take a year off to backpack across Europe or Canada to "find yourself". Just kidding

Dec 14, 2016

case in point: one friend set to go to DB, decided he wanted to teach abroad instead. Reneged after accepting the summer offer in December or January of our senior year.

Another friend got a job at Bain and turned down MS ibanking after accepting.

It happens and im sure they're not crying over him. Granted, an MM may remember since the classes may be smaller and (hopefully) HR 'knows' you a little bit better.

MSG- part of their analyst class were moved because of the market. Especially in S&T when you cant really do anything but watch and learn your first year, there's no point for them to sit on the desk and watch. Im just saying it's probably not what they signed up for, and i heard a couple of kids walked (credible GS source).

My associate also worked at another BB before said he was hired specifically for the lev fin group and ended up getting put into for a business development group, which apparently was the worse thing ever.

So it happens. Dont feel bad.

Dec 14, 2016

I hear its quite a common issue among incoming classes and that ppl do renege. i would suggest calling the MM earlier rather than later to be safe.

i think a more interesting question is what happens if u had a BB offer after summering there and reneged for a better BB offer, eg going from a DB/CS/JPM to a GS/MS. What do ppl think about this one?

Dec 14, 2016

I want to hear from you kids 3, 5 or 10 years from now. Tell me how you're doing. I bet your attitude changes, especially when you finally get to experience the politics of an average firm. The sooner you stop thinking that everybody is kind and has your best interest at heart, the better prepared you're going to be. If this advice sounds cold to you people, so be it. I have no problem sounding cold if it means I slap you into reality.

Dec 14, 2016

Ok, I've reconsidered my advice about giving the MM a month's notice. Accept the BB offer and hold unto the MM offer until you've absolutely cleared the BB's background check and rec'd the BB hiring bonus and deposited it. Then give the MM your reneg notice. Hope that's kinder to you people.

Dec 14, 2016

haha i like that and i agree.

Dec 14, 2016

Thanks :-)

Ofcourse as women we know better, we have better instincts. These men...

Dec 14, 2016

reneging is unethical because of all the time and money they invested in hiring you. at the same time, id still renege if I had a better offer. you gotta look out for #1. but I'd probably wouldnt be in that situation because my risk tolerance isnt that low. I wouldnt apply to 10 firms when I'm aiming for 2 just to be safe. believe in yourself more.

Dec 14, 2016

C'mon reneging is unethical? Ay.

Until 9:01 AM your first day in the office, you firm has not lost time and money to hire you. Reneging is not unethical, sometimes it's necessary. Both from the firm's perspective as well as from the candidate's perspective. Until that first day in the office, all is fair. It's the cost of doing business.

Dec 14, 2016

ok ethics is subjective so you might not agree to the degree of ethics or you might even think its not unethical at all. BUT its obvious they SPEND money to RECRUIT you. I mean do you think all those HR costs are free? or somehow fixed? getting you an office visit or even on campus visit requires different people's commitment. they couldve spent that time on someone else who wanted to go with that firm. I'm not say I wouldnt do it (as long as you can live with the ethics of it) but it is somewhat unethical.

Dec 14, 2016

Just curious - to all those people reccomending reneging: what excuse would someone reneging give? Should they just tell the truth that they got a better offer, or should they not be so direct?

Dec 14, 2016

Look, firms reneg all the time, or they push back start dates, or they might even assign you to completely different functional area than initially intended and candidates pretty much yo-yo their way thru the process.

Reneging becomes an issue and truly only costs the firm when it's a position of much greater presence, e.g. a C-level executive. In which case yes, significant costs are borne to recruit and the loss of a candidate already announced and anticipated could drastically impact a firm and its operations.

At the analyst level, don't sweat these things too much. If you have to reneg, you have to reneg. Just try to do it as sincerely and tactfully as possible. No elaborate explanation required. Firms anticipate a certain degree of "fall-out" from a class of candidates and it is factored into their recruiting process.

Dec 14, 2016

Recruiting cost is a bad excuse. If you didn't accept the offer to begin with, the bank was set to lose that amount of money anyway.

Dec 14, 2016

lmao @ these ppl who are worried about it being unethical to accept a better offer. YOU'RE IN THIS BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY RIGHT? or do you just want a pat on the back? (probably true for most kids going into finance these days.) believe me those firms have zero loyalty to you. so yes to aadpepsi's proposal. but don't try to make this a women>men thing, you don't want to go there... :)

Dec 14, 2016

i love how many people on this forum talk about ethics and how its wrong to reneg, etc. I totally agree with aadpepsi - wait until a few yrs from now after youve been put through the grinder and realize that analysts are a dime a dozen. the only thing i would disagree with is to keep both offers until near your start date, although I do think the second idea about waiting until the bkgrnd check and bonus are in is a good idea. It still gives the MM time to bring in new or old candidates and hire someone.

and screw this crap about recruiting costs, etc. - why are you showing loyalty to a bank you dont even work for yet? its retarded. the real world doesnt work like his and maybe after a few years of getting crapped on, you guys will realize that its all about lookin out for number 1.

Dec 14, 2016

..but would the other (BB) bank be concerned that you are breaking another (MM) contract to join the BB? Assume that the BB by some means found out about the fact that you have accepted a MM offer already - would they be concerned? I think not, but I'd like to hear your views on this.

Dec 14, 2016

i can only support what jimbo and aadpepsi said. on the last day of my summer internship my group head took me to the side and told me specifically to not totally rely on the offer I had just received. He explained that if things get worse, the prospective analysts will suffer. He suggested interviewing with other banks just in case the bank decides to cut down next year's analyst class.

Dec 14, 2016

Does anyone have any horror stories of reneging an offer and getting fucked at the analyst level??

Dec 14, 2016

Yeah, I would be interested to know too.

Dec 14, 2016

"nothing can happen before you swing the bat"
you don't even have the offer yet, so don't sweat the hypotheticals

do it discretely, and see how it turns out
do not mention your upcoming employment at BB #1 to the new firm
then, depending on if you get the offer, weigh your decisions afterwards

happy to give advice; no asking for referrals please

Dec 14, 2016

Also, how did you receive the first offer? Was it through OCR?

Dec 14, 2016

It was through off campus recruiting so I'm not too concernded with burning bridges at my alma matter. The other firm already knows that I work at the BB. Did I screw up there?,

Dec 14, 2016

This topic gets brought up like once a month and the answer is always to renege for the better offer. There are 100 other people they could hire tomorrow and unless you're burning a personal bridge, you don't owe them anything. Loyalty is great, until you realize they'd drop you in a second in favor of the firm's well being. This goes for any company in any industry. Unless there's some extenuating circumstance that would result in you being blackballed, always renege for the better offer.

Wait till you have a second offer, though.

Dec 14, 2016

Yeah id just reneg. You always have people running into these threads screaming "but finance is such a small world!!". Sometime you gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelette.

Dec 14, 2016

Yes, I personally know someone who accepted a pretty shitty offer and ended up getting a much better interview in FICC. She was stupid enough to mention this at one of those interviews disguised as a casual get together... and she was rejected. Since the interview was through an alum in the group, she got feedback from him which was "they had a serious issue with the fact that you had already accepted an offer and didn't have any qualms about reneging on your prior commitment".

No one wants to extend an offer to someone who would, at the drop of a hat renege when a better opportunity comes along.

Dec 14, 2016

Let me also throw in my 2 cents:

The standard belief is this: You aren't allowed to reneg on their offer...but they are allowed to do this on your offer.
They can F you up too.

If you don't reneg...and you stop interviewing coz u accepted an offer with firm A...it is very possible that firm A, in a few months---just prior to graduation, will cancel your offer and leave you high and dry.

It's a gamble son.....either they will do it before you, or you will do it before them, or no one will do it and everyone will be happy.

Dec 14, 2016

how are you supposed to interview if your summer firm gives you an exploding offer? should you lie and tell other firms that you received a return offer but haven't accepted? what are the chances of them contacting your summer firm?

it's too risky not to accept the summer offer first

Dec 14, 2016

It's very easy to screw yourself in any number of ways, including: 1) having word that you're interviewing filter back to the firm you've already accepted an offer with, 2) having firms ding you and blacklist you for future possibilities because they find out during the interview process that you have already accepted an offer, or 3) burning bridges at the firm you renege on. People move around in this industry, so the bridges you burn are not isolated in one firm. You might also get into trouble at your school, or cause problems for your school if either company notifies the school of what you've done. This happened at Stanford when I was there.

It's a tricky situation and there are a lot of ways you can screw yourself. The whole point of the early or exploding offer is to get you locked up. You're not supposed to be interviewing with other firms.

It's VERY risky in my opinion, but if you do interview, I think telling them you have another offer will guarantee that you'll get dinged. If you don't tell them and end up getting an offer that you like much better, you should carefully weigh the likely consequences and if it still seems like offer B is better, take it.

This question with a bunch of different perspectives was asked on the Gotta Mentor site.
Career Dilemma: To Renege, or Not To Renege on a Job Offer - http://bit.ly/IVsHg
Gotta Mentor
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Dec 14, 2016

I don't necessarily disagree with any of the above, but i'm curious how word can filter back that i'm interviewing. Do recruiters talk to other recruiters about who they are interviewing? I figured they are generally competing against one another to not give a sht.

Dec 14, 2016
dealcomps:

I don't necessarily disagree with any of the above, but i'm curious how word can filter back that i'm interviewing. Do recruiters talk to other recruiters about who they are interviewing? I figured they are generally competing against one another to not give a sht.

Would you ever seriously date a girl you met and hooked up with while she was engaged?

Second, competing against eachother? Whats the prize, a pimply faced college student? You're a dime a dozen. No one's view is "he fucked Credit Suisse over for us... we must be something really special." Its more like "he fucked Credit Suisse over, he'll probably do the same if we extend him an offer, lets just choose from any one of the other 300 candidates wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and tie to match our corporate colors." You'll be lucky if you even get that 40 nanosecond thought process. You're just not even worth thinking about at that point, not because they're so insulted, but because you don't matter. Its not like anyone is wringing their hands deciding to extend you an offer or not.

Its like what I tell my girlfriend... if anything were to ever happen to you, it would probably take me the better part of an hour finding a replacement.... except change hour to minute, in this case.

Dec 14, 2016

I don't doubt any of that, but i'm just curious how word would filter back about someone interviewing.

Dec 14, 2016

does hr usually communicate with other firms amongst themselves?

Dec 14, 2016

yes u should be EXTREMELY careful with this...heard many smart kids got burned on both ends when doing this...if u lie, the firm interviewing u will find out somehow...u will be amazed how connected this industry is. so u are right, u are taking a big gamble. so do NOT lie! someone always knows someone. firms hate ppl who cannot stick to their commitments...whatever u do, just don't lie. if ur summer employer finds out u are still recruiting behind their back...very little chance u are going to get a second chance. sadly, this industry can be very cold-blooded. see this nightmare story happen many many times already.
good luck with this. hopefully everything will work out alright.

Dec 14, 2016

Nope.

Dec 14, 2016

Even if it was illegal, I doubt it would be economical for them to pursue legal action

Dec 14, 2016

awesome, thanks!

Dec 14, 2016

People renege all the time. It's far more common than people realize.

Dec 14, 2016

you'd probably still piss them off, but as long as you're not a dick about it, i don't see it fucking you 20 years down the road.

Dec 14, 2016
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