Why Does The World Hate Wall Street and Bankers
It seems that conservative and liberal pundits alike all use Investment Bankers as a symbol of greed and corruption to scapegoat for all of the countries woes. Did this all start after the housing crisis or has there always been hostility towards bankers?
I commonly hear journalists spout the ignorance that bankers add nothing to the economy and it is frustrating because I don't think they realize all of the work that bankers put in to allow American businesses to finance and grow their operations. Even on a smaller level, do these people realize that they would not be able to finance their cars and homes if it were not for the retail/consumer arm of big banks?
this is OP right now: http://i.imgur.com/WTDnnwE.gif
boils down to they hate us cus they aint us
u mean to say "they hate us cuz they anus"
Same reason geeds hate FratLords. Ask me if I give a fuck?
Go on, ask me, really.
Do you give a fuck?
Take the amount of genders that exist, then subtract 2. That's how many fucks I give. 0, 0 fucks is how many I give. crushes Natty and bangs a noobs mom for talking shit on X-Box live
If you've had the chance to grab drinks with a Senior Banker whose been in the industry for multiple generations (30-40+ years), they'll often share why if you broach the subject. This doesn't apply to everyone, but many bankers did a bang up job from the 1970's until now screwing the profession's reputation by simply acting like greedy assholes.
An MD I've been privy to drinking with described WallStreet firms in the 80's as such, "They were ripe with drugs, large personalities, and self-serving attitudes." Those three ingredients create a personality cocktail doesn't bode well for work place morality nor a well liked reputation...
I describe the reason why Bankers are hated as such (citing a recent example): Fact 1A.) There is no proven relationship between how much money you make and how little friends you have.
Fact 1B.) There is a proven relationship between how many people you screw out of their life-savings with loans that were unknowingly sub-prime, and how little friends you have.
Unfortunately everyone in the industry is now thrust under the same umbrella, despite the fact that there are many positive ancillary benefits coming from the industry, such as: job creation, business proliferation, and the economy being kept in motion. Like life, we are as fast as our slowest runner... or most immoral in this case.
Fact is: Those people have no idea what they are talking about. It is the same with politicians like Bernie Sanders who would even fail a basic exam in macroeconomics. A eco freshman has probably a better understanding on how the economy works than this bastard. People don´t even know what an Investment Banker does. Most Americans believe that they speculate with normal people savings to generate revenue similar like in the Wolf of Wall Street. They don´t have a clue abut M&A, DCM, ECM, ....
I dare people to believe idiots like Bernie Sanders and to break up Wall Street banks, so that they can see how important those institutions are. There wouldn´t be any major process possible without investment banks. No economic growth, nothing. At least not in the same pace and rates we saw. Helping companies to acquire others and to enable them access to capital is the fundamental of growth and innovation. A break up would cause higher unemployment and slower economic growth. Banks play a major role in the economy and the fact that there are some stories about some greedy individuals who were involved in criminal activities don´t change shit.
Well said. A lot of people think everyone in finance or banking is a stockbroker or works as a teller, it's funny that they don't even know what they claim to hate
This. The majority of people have no idea what investment banks do or why they are important to the economy.
A clear line must be drawn between the issue of whether Wall Street provides value to society (it undeniably does) and whether we should "believe idiots like Bernie Sanders and to break up Wall Street banks".
Presumably "break up Wall Street banks" refers to the systemically important financial institutions. I am genuinely interested in whether the benefits of having giant banks (global competitiveness, economies of scale, etc.) outweigh the risks (Too Big to Fail). Are there services that a smaller bank can't even come close to providing as well as a TBTF bank?
I am purely playing the Devil's advocate here when I ask: why couldn't smaller banks provide all the valuable services you have identified - "Helping companies to acquire others and to enable them access to capital is the fundamental of growth and innovation."?
There are many reasons why big players are necessary. For example, JPM has a great balance sheet to finance deals. Only large banks like GS/MS/JPM can offer some kind of structured products. Only JPM can finance a 50bn deal in 2 months. Generally, large banks offer customers a wider range of products and services. Banks that are more diversified in their activities — which is the case with most large banks — generally pose less risk of failure. In the recent financial crisis roughly 450 small banks failed and some 200 small banks have yet to pay back their TARP assistance. How many of the big banks actually failed?
Banks like JPM, Citi, BoA also profit from economies of scale. A bank breakup might mean higher interest rates and fees on credit since you can't run 3 smaller banks for the same amount you need to run one big bank. Banks ultimately sell loans to aggregators such as Wells Fargo, U.S. Bank or JPM, which in turn put them into securities and sell them to investors. If banks aren't big enough to aggregate loans, it would have a negative impact on the flow of mortgage money (slower lending -> slower economic growth since spending is the main contributor to growth in the US). Big Banks don't just aggregate loans, they also invest in them. Smaller banks might be less able or willing to risk money this way, a change that could also mean waiting longer or paying more for mortgages. Besides that the biggest banks have a global presence. How do you want to advise a large US company who acquires a competitor in Europe? Do you really want large U.S. companies going to large foreign banks? You push the center of finance out of the U.S. and over to Europe. That's not good overall for the American economy, especially in a world that's becoming more globalized every day.
More important, we overlook the lessons of history. The Great Depression raged despite the fact that most banks were small. The 2008 crisis was easier to contain than the Great Depression because the Fed and the Treasury were able to get the heads of the large banks in a single room and strong-arm them into an agreement that ended the panic and restored lending.
Furthermore, no advocate of a breakup has come forward with a plan on how to do it. Large banks are global, complex, integrated institutions. Breaking them apart would be incredibly difficult, long and disruptive, and the banks might have to freeze loan growth during the process, slowing our economy even further.
Because in all honesty, how much value does a banker actually create?
Few people understand economics..basic economics. Even fewer people understand finance.
People verbally hate rich people. But instinctively love them.
Just imagine if the "refugees" were actually millionaires. Societies have no problems with super wealthy immigrants.
But once you're poor/needy, you're "loved" and "welcomed" while avoided like the plague.
There's a great scene in the movie The Gambler (horrible movie, great scene) about "fuck you money". Naturally people will never admit they love assholes.
But what we like and what we want are usually polar opposites. Think about your relationships.
+1. Red Pilled to the core. I agree.
Most people don't actually know what investment bankers do. I give a lot of lectures to engineering students, medical students, undergrads, etc on the basics of our financial and capital markets and I usually start the lecture with "Does anyone know what investment bankers do?" The answer is always "They take other people's money and invest it."
Without finance and banking we'd still live in stone age. Oh and only the weak need doctors.
People have been hating bankers since the day one of them made more money than other people.
My 2 cents is that banking gets a bigger share of the pie than it deserves . And by deserve i mean to actual contribution to human development. And that is because not a lot of people can understand that shitstorm named finance. The financial system is complicated and the discrepancy of information is what allows bankers to exploit it because without the service they provide thngs wouldnt be able to move. But IB is the middleman and middlemen shouldnt take so big part of the pie. At least i think this is the opinion of the public hich knows what IB is etc
Athletes/Entertainers don't contribute much to human development but are paid fortunes. IB exists because there's clearly a big demand for it. End of the day it's supply/demand.
Well if you want to be compared to atheletes who are literally living ads then go ahead. I dont. Supply demand is one thing. Having the mental capacity to see how this whole thing could become more efficient is another. From what i've seen. Paying bankers enormous amounts of money doesnt ensure the efficiency of the markets.
Vilification of Young Wall-Streeters (Originally Posted: 05/25/2012)
So, I haven't posted here in a while, but I wanted to take a quick second on this dreary morning of the unofficial start to the NYC summer to write about the vilification of young finance professionals in the minds of those outside the industry. This story really has no goal, I am just looking to start an open discussion I guess. It comes as a result of two unrelated experiences.
First is my recent experience with my extended family. While you would think these people would be supportive of me and my career, the "liberal" side of my family sees me as no different than the Raj's of the world. They think my job involves nothing more than "manipulating money" (a direct quote) and reaping gains while not actually contributing anything to society.
This is interesting as it comes from people who complain about their inability to get a loan for their business, and I am currently working at a leveraged loan shop, evaluating and loaning millions of dollars to businesses in need of capital... But I guess I'm just pushing buttons and manipulating money. The second experience (and the one that inspired this post) occurred around 1am at a bar last night/this morning. I was enjoying myself, sipping my beer, having a nice conversation and entertaining a lovely young lady at the bar. Everything was going well, making the normal small talk, until we get to the "what do you do for a living" question. Casually, I say that I work in finance, not trying to bore her with the details (maybe I should have...). Instant turn off. I may as well just told her I have syphilis and murdered puppies for a living. WTF? It used to be great to be in finance; now, I would probably be better off saying I have a G.E.D. and work as a garbage man.
I guess my point is this: Finance used to be respected. Those in the industry were seen as smart, driven, hard-working, successful individuals. Most of us (I think) still fit this description; however, due to the actions of a few we are seen as second-class douche bags. I think my family may give my cousin the waiter more respect for what he is doing than me for what I am doing.
But let me say this, I know how hard I worked to get where I am today and how hard I work at work every day. Those who aren’t in the industry, or don’t know me, don’t get it, and it sucks. They think I am nothing more than a monkey that works 100-hours per week (sorry if you do, put in your time, it won’t be like that forever) contributing nothing to society. As I sit here and prepare to blow out of my office at 11am to start my summer, I say… f*** ‘em all, and just hope that eventually the stigma wears off. Happy Memorial Day weekend monkeys…
Because they are scape goats used by politicians when in fact the #1 source of inequality is government greed and people's own stupid life choices. People are happy to blame anyone but themselves.
All we do is sell companies and securities. MBS was the result of Clinton being a moron and banks transferring their risks.
Yeah man, it's "cool" to hate on finance these days, and ironically the vast majority of the people who do know nothing about it. Fuck em all, man. Fuck em all. The judgment you were receiving is a reflection of them, not you.
One less reason to go into finance besides simply doing it because you enjoy it.
When folks outside the industry ask me what I do, I say I'm a programmer.
So you seek approval of other people so much that you're even afraid to tell them that you do for the living?
Next time somebody tries to ream you out for being a financebro, just take your wad of 100s and make it rain all over him/her.
Example:
http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/165248-1/Keffiyeh_throwing_cash.gif
You'll be hearing that a lot more OP.
My brother has told me, whenever people ask you what you do in the future and you're working in finance, just say you're a Loan Officer.
Who cares what other people think. I will never understand this crap. If someone gives you shit about what you do just walk away from them. Not only are the uninformed, but they are rude and ignorant. Try and not lower yourself by hanging around people with so little class.
Take comfort in the fact that it's their stupidity, not anything that you've done. It doesn't have anything to do with Raj and his ilk - people like them have been around since the beginning. It has never stopped, it never will, and it's not something unique to finance. There is just as much fraud (if not more) in the medical profession, or any other profession, so don't find yourself apologizing for your industry because of them. I know it's tough when it's family, but the sad fact is most people are stupid and gullible.
As for your girl problems, isn't that a nice screening method? Do you really want to be with a girl that stupid? Regardless, never tell a girl you work in finance (or IT/accounting/law/whatever sector you work in). Unless you're a psychic detective, bounty hunter, or other profession which by its very name is awesome, always take the essence of your job and explain in simplest terms why you add value, which makes anything sound much cooler. E.g. "What I do is pretty complex, but here's the deal. Right now, our economy is having a hard time getting off the ground because business owners can't get the money they need to grow and hire people. My job is to find a way to responsibly get millions of dollars to these businesses so they can grow, and so people can feed their families."
/commeceRant I'm just a dude with a job, and have no use for anyone that needs to drag their worldview into everything all the time. My liberal relatives have their 401K in my company, so I kinda chuckled when I learned that. It also helps that my bank didn't take any government money, so there's that. I've gone to the bar and hung out with OWS people, just to hear what they have to say. Some were cool people with good points. Some were jerks: one guy started getting rude about how 'corporations are evil and so am I', so I stood up on the table and shouted "YEAH MOTHERFUCKER I OPPRESS YOU NOW LET'S DO ANOTHER SHOT"....true story. /endRant
This is just a job. My understanding of people that judge you by your profession is that they're not worth knowing. If someone is cool, great, if not, screw 'em.
Just do your thing.
Totally see where you're coming from. I don't care about what people do for a living, I value other things. And I don't really respect people who put a lot of importance on job title. BTW, I think the stigma will remain, we are entering the "Evil professions" club. I hear it was founded by lawyers.
Lol. I love the responses to this thread. Essentially, "Fuck them, it's because they are stupid." Typical WSO.
But here's a thread called "Do you care about your 'value-add' to society". I think many of the responses speak for themselves.
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/do-you-care-about-your-value-add-…
And here's one where the WSO members "vomit" after reading Robert Shiller's speech telling young financiers that they play an important role and should use that role to make the world a better place.
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/my-speech-to-the-finance-graduate…
You complain that now people look at financiers as second-class douchebags. I disagree, I believe they are seen as first class douchebags and that is certainly how they behave on this site; if that's any indication of the people going into finance. The site is divided into Targets and non-targets for crying out loud, think about that stratification.
You're crying because you want respect, stop being a b*tch and do what you need/want to do. You don't need to create a thread on a Wall Street forum to try and justify your worth and morality (the two reasons wall street is being vilified). Many of the young financiers on this website have demonstrated they lack either quality, if you have them, demonstrate it yourself because very few going into finance are going to demonstrate it for you. Though i have met some fantastic people who work on wall street.
ie, earn your own respect because it certainly isn't going to come from hanging out in this crowd, and deservedly so IMO.
Just because some morons in some banks screwed up does not make our profession 'evil'. Are all doctors evil because some botch a surgery or because medical billing/insurance in this country is a joke? NO. Are architects evil because a bridge sometimes bites the dust? NO.
Bad things happen, that's life, don't turn it all into a conspiracy.
So don't make such sweeping generalizations about my industry or the people in it. I regard this as a personal attack on myself and my livelihood when people imply that we are anything but a legitimate business. And that's what this is....a business. We're not missionaries or charity workers, but we do our part creating and protecting wealth. And a lot of us do volunteer work on the side: I'm a partner at a charity.
If you really want to play the blame game and get technical, blame former president Bush for perpetuating an artificially low interest rate environment to impose his worldview...or blame the legion of idiots who re-elected him. Ultimately, systemic accountability lies with the government, and they absolutely did create an environment where business was forced to overheat and rules were relaxed...people screwing up and/or taking advantage of that is simple human nature. Voting for an idiot, however, was a deliberate decision.
/endRant
Whoa, I think I glossed over an important part. Why the hell are you allowing liberal family members to shit on you? This is far worse of a man crime than being ashamed of what you do. You need to put them in their place.
I literally cannot fathom any single person in my family giving me shit about anything. Does this shit happen in real life? Tear them a new asshole and send them packing like the pussies they are.
Guys, honestly, family members talk shit to you? Please tell me this is an exaggeration and not what really happens.
lol @ entire thread
vilifying the young "bankers" is like putting on a war crimes trial for the lackey who brought hitler his strawberry jam for breakfast
And what is this crap about being afraid to tell people what you do. Drop the finance bomb and when someone pisses and moans about evil bankers tell them to piss off and laugh at them.
Not trying to be smug, but you catch my drift. Mother Theresa can talk shit to me, but most other people should probably STFU.
Either way my entire mantra is simply to be centered with who you are and what you do. People who talk shit about other people and their career are ignorant, little and rude. Not people you want to associate with. Especially someone who does this as soon as they meet you in the bar.
Finance is important, but in a more complex way. Everyone has first hand experience with many other careers, but finance is 2nd or 3rd degree removed beneficial. You need to understand the workings of the machine to understand how the various aspects of finance benefit all of us.
A conversation with folks is a connection at the human level. If you want to talk with someone, why go out of your way to make that difficult?
Of course. But an oversupply of finance can also be detrimental. Do you understand the workings of the machine well enough to also understand that a lot of these folks have a point on at least a couple issues? LOL! They're the right people! They keep me NORMAL!If I am at the bar and someone gives me shit about my job, someone I don't know, then no, I don't want to talk to them. I mean this is the whole point. This isn't a discussion on the merits of XYZ, this is an ignorant douche crapping on your job because of some tripe that they watched on the Daily Show.
When my gf's mother who is ultra-liberal (tells me she hopes I have a son - a gay one) tries to imply everyone in finance is crooked, I just let her talk and talk. Give people enough rope and they'll hang themselves with their ignorance.
Just ask simple questions about basic instruments until they openly admit they do not know anything about banking.
A good example would be the mortgage crisis and how it's all the bank's fault. I would say "well you know how CDO's are put together right?" and then shut up and let her make a fool of herself. I guarantee 95% of the people who have an opinion on JPM will look at you with bewilderment when you ask them to explain what IG9 is.
Dude, let me know when you are single again cause that relationship is DOA.
Every time I meet OWS people, I can only think of this: Starting @1:20,
1.) Life is better when you don't try to inspire anger in others. 2.) Life is better when you don't try to inspire jealousy in others.
If you have the opportunity to keep your role more generic that mitigates (1) and (2) in the average person, why not do it? You don't have to care about what other people think of you, but part of being human is that you care about THEM and their health.
Our success should be a blessing to others, not a curse. It isn't my entire responsiblity that someone would hate me or be jealous of me, but it isn't their entire responsibility either. So why not make it easier for everybody?
Good piece, Billy Ray. Your experience tells us about several things, one being the vertical economic mobility of some and the envy of others who come from the same same economic strata. That envy, particularly of entrepreneurs and finance people, takes a lot of expressions. Frankly, I think you need to be able to defend yourself, to do at least some thinking about the literal productive effects of what it is that you do. Be proud of it. I know, a lot of WSO monkeys disparage any thinking about the literal value of financial functions. But nobody on WSO can be unaware that the financial community is under attack from many directions. Right now, only the bad behavior of the financial community is reported. Without defenders it will be regulated to death. The political hacks who want to do that know about the public sentiment you ran into, have encouraged it, and rely on it for support.
Wow, this spiraled a bit out of control. I think people may have slightly missed the point of my original post. First, my family is not “talking shit” to me, and I wouldn’t allow that. I was simply making the point that unfortunately the few bad eggs in the business, which there surely are, have made it difficult for many of us to garner the same level of respect for our industry that we once had.
Secondly, the fact that some of the responders think I was posting this looking for some sort of sympathy is just wrong. I don’t give a shit what anyone else thinks. I know what I do. I know how it contributes to society. I know how hard I worked to get where I am. And I know that I actually enjoy what I do and I enjoy the people I work with. And I am proud of it. As I said at the end of my OP, if someone doesn’t understand that, f*** ‘em.
I luckily have a job that happens to allow me to enjoy all of the amazing things this world has to offer. It allows me to do all the things I enjoy and spend time with the people I care about. So, if that means I have to deal with some people who may not “get it” that’s fine by me, I could really give two shits what you think.
And @happyhippo... glad thats like your second post on this site. I award your response NO respect, and definitely could care less what you think. And I do add value, if you don't see that, its your problem.
These are two seperate issues:
1) On the family side....unfortunately you cant change your family. When this happens to me (and it does) I just laugh it off..who cares what aunt tilley thinks? Just change the subject and move on its not worth figting about.
2) Being in finance has never been a job that turns women on especially girls you meet at a bar who are there to have fun. It is a boring job. Programmer is even worse actually. If a girl asks you what you do for a living the conversation is already turning boring anyway and you are losing control of the situation. Point being that the girl is only going to be turned off by your job if you she isnt attracted to you....when girls ask me my job i have fun with it, make them guess, say im a porn star, etc and when the actual truth comes out she doesnt care she's just having a good time. Seperately you learn alot about yourself by making girls guess your job...if you ask that and girls guess something boring like a banker then you may want to think about why you come off as a boring person on first impression.
Totally agree... I personally tell everyone that I invented the Shake Weight
Another great post by Bondarb... +1 SB
I usually say "I'm a kept man" or "i used to be an underwear model" with a straight face... It takes a few seconds for them to figure out that I'm not being serious and we continue flirting from there; by the time girls find out what I do we're already having a great time and have set our ideologies and hang-ups aside. I have friends who say they're security guards or garbage collectors and that approach works well too. You can't pretty much choose any job that doesn't suit a white collar guy and make it flirty. Eventually, at that night or later, you will disclose your job and have to be comfortable with it. It's just a job and they're more interested in dating the man not the stereotype. I'm in real estate pe though so it's easier for me as I'm not as big a parasite as the rest of you guys*...
As to those who decide to cut off ties to their families and to stop going to gatherings... WOW... You guys have serious issues and need to work on your family relationships. Your banks/employers will toss you on the street the moment it suits them. Blood is thicker than water.
Banker's rep...
Bankers and finance getting a bad rep isn't something new. Only for a very short period in the go-go 80s and in the Thatcher / Reagan years was it socially desirable to be a banker (even then marginally so and in some cases people were extremely hostile to bankers then). For the few centuries before that time bankers as a class were seen as undesirable and a necessary evil of an industrialising/industrial society by most people. Before that people who practised banking/lending were social outcasts and demonised by the major religions, societies and throughout literature (e.g. Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice). Society has never loved it's financiers so don't expect them to start now, especially so soon after you've ruined the party for everyone else.
The reason a lot of you youngsters are confused is, apart from a seemingly lack of historical context, that the rhetoric you know is different from the rest of society (i.e. you don't know that you are screwing them). Bankers talk about synergies, efficiencies, shareholder value, protecting IP, "efficient" markets, etc... but to the rest of society it means losing jobs and livelihoods, union busting, cutting government services, denial of healthcare, private autocracy, wage slavery, hijacking the government/democratic process, private monopolies, hazardous foods/cars/products, tax dodging, etc... Then you wonder why they don't embrace you with open arms when you tell them you're a banker?
* N.B. Don't take it too personally guys. It's there for comedic effect
Capitalism is the best economic system. That being said, it does leave many opportunities to be exploited. The reason financiers get shit is because the "bad" stories obviously get more media attention than the "good" stories. People have no interest in financial happenings that go well, but they damn sure wanna know about when they're getting fucked. That's why people hate on it, because of the actions of a small amount of people. 1 bad story will always get WAYYYY more press than 100 good stories. I'd say next time someone gives you shit, to explain this and how you are one of the "good" guys but at the end of the day they'd probably have no idea wtf you're talking about.
If you're a good guy, yea it sucks you're losing respect because of OTHER ppl's actions. If you're a bad guy GFY because not only are you sending the reputation of an entire profession to shit, but you're also causing regulations to have to be installed that are further sending it to shit.
It's like people complain about unemployment being too high but then they complain about others working jobs they don't approve of. You can't win with leftists.
Hu... Do you you want people not working in Finance to give you candies on top of your bonus? Yea people have an opinion about finance, so what? My grand mother thinks I am a teller... My friends think I bring in 500K a year... Some occupy guy thinks am a twat...
Let people make their own opinions of you. Prove them wrong. Don't be a twat and get along with your life. You are a banker, wow! People don't think you are super smart and driven, oh my! That must be tough!!!
Liberalism is a mental disorder... plain and simple.
Do you know what liberalism is? You're an idiot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Yes, the vilification of Finance people is there. But it has become "cool" to be ignorant. Even the White House feeds on that ignorance by speaking out against private equity. Most people in the US can't even make a logical argument as to how Finance and Wall Street could be so bad and evil. They couldn't tell you the difference between a put, call or futures contract. Most people don't even know that some pensions are invested in private equity. Many of the same middle income people that are against Finance don't even know that they themselves have money invested in it.
Neurosurgeon ain't cool.
Huh?
Every time when a girl ask me about 1) where I work, 2) where I live, 3) where I go to school; I secretly cross her off my list. The reasons are 1) she is a gold digger, 2) she is boring, 3) this is not a job interview.
I don't know, man -- these are pretty basic questions that're bound to come up eventually. I'm not saying you should treat dates like job interviews, but come on now.
[quote=Human]Every time when a girl ask me about 1) where I work, 2) where I live, 3) where I go to school; I secretly cross her off my list. The reasons are 1) she is a gold digger, 2) she is boring, 3) this is not a job interview.[/quote
So true! There's enough to prove and live up to to oneself without having to jump through hoops and run a treadmill to keep some gold digger happy too!
If these are the first questions a girl asks upon meeting you, then yes, it's an automatic dealbreaker. But these questions by themselves are harmless ice breakers, and in a first date where you guys are getting to know each other, i don't see how these questions can be avoided. You really think if she asks where you went to college into a one-hour conversation, that somehow means she's a gold-digger? Although I agree with the heart of your post, let's not get too carried away here.
I think part of the issue is when people ask you what you do, and you respond "I work in finance" - you may be doing it to not draw attention to it, or to save him/her from boredom of actually explaining what you do on a daily basis, but at the same time it can come off as arrogant and if you don't actually tell people what you do, they are left to assume and decide for themselves (AKA money manipulator, destroyer of societies, you get the point).
Focusing on the important part of the post though, next time you are entertaining a lady and she asks you what you do for a living, tell you her you work at a loan company (dumb it down for her) and that you loan out money to businesses who need it to grow and expand. Even if it isn't 100 percent factual, in that one sentence you A) don't' sound general and arrogant, b) actually gave her a more simple and accurate portrayal of what you do so she doesn't assume and C) maybe, just maybe, because i don't want to get carried away here, you even displayed to her how you contribute to modern society.
Alright maybe not C, but you still have A & B. And that is pretty damn good.
There is no villification of young wall streeters, it's a villification of wall street and it's lack of obvious value creation.
The critics have a point.
Do they? Do most businesses add value to society? Does McDonald's, Philip Morris, Budweiser, defense companies that sponsor war and a host of other businesses really add value to society? McD's is basically an entity that extracts value from society by selling shit food that makes people sick and then passing the costs of that bad behavior on to the government in the form of higher Medicare costs. It's a parasite on society.
If you look around the economy, you will see that a lot things that exist are actually VERY BAD for society. Lots of healthcare companies destroy value. Read the recent dental thread. Many consumer products companies have dubious value propositions. You can extrapolate all sorts of first and second order effects without even trying.
"Wall Street" is a big place. The banking system fucked up, we know that. I won't defend the banks. If you look at a lot of private wealth vehicles though, such as RIAs, HFs, MFs, whatever, that are part of "Wall Street," most of these entities are close to net neutral with a slight positive bias in their value production for society.
Investment funds add value by making the secondary markets more efficient, which adds depth to the primary markets, thereby facilitating capital raises for growing companies that may be adding value. And we pay a shit load of taxes, which in theory adds value (though that's clearly a question with our government). It's not curing cancer and we're not on the short list for the Nobel Prize, but those two things alone have a more positive impact on society than many businesses can claim. And we don't kill anyone in the process.
Take it as a badge of honor. People wouldn't hate high finance folks if they didn't make as much money. Jealousy, plain and simple. The same fuckstains who hate on you wouldn't complain if they got a million dollar check for doing absolutely nothing the next day.
My satisfaction with my job (future job) is directly correlated to the number of hippies that hate me. The more people hate me for what I do/how much money I make then the happier I am. That means more and more people are jealous of me because they're worthless retards, the better. I want a job that everyone hates (not in the way you would hate being a plumber or mortician but you get what I mean). Knowing that you are so much better than so many other people at life is intoxicating.
Haters gonna hate bro. They mad cuz they aint.
Just imagine the kids he is walking past are a bunch of dirty hippies yelling at you.
The critics have a point, but so do Wall Street's proponents.
-I shouldn't have to fill out ten forms to change a light bulb because regulators think I am trying to crash the markets. -There is a lot of value in lining up investors with businesses. -Some people really are worth 5x, 10x, 50x, 100x what the average person makes in a year. Often because they do 5x, 10x, 50x the work. Taxes are a different debate (I am fine with progressive taxes), but these folks deserve to be compensated for their work.
I largely agree with you, but have a few nits to pick:
Bernie Madoff's investors would disagree with you. So would folks committing suicide in Italy and Greece over a crisis that has been blamed (rightly or wrongly) on the bankers.Whether Wall Street kills people is about as debatable as whether McDonald's kills people. One thing is for sure though; being unreasonably poor shortens peoples' lives.
siphon whatever. i had my choice of going on in academia with the string of endless postdocs, dubious chance at teaching at a decent place where the kids wouldn't be mildly retarded, or making a shitload of money in finance and retiring early. every society gets what it deserves in the long run and this one has already decided to take a juicy dump over the heads of people seeking to do pure research that will benefit mankind 100 years down the line. wall street has just given STEM whizzes a second chance because they didn't figure out the first time around that money talks and bullshit walks.
My point is that regulations should be changed to make it less lucrative to work in finance (yes, I just said that). Our governments economic policy should be geared to increase the wealth/income of the median worker. I believe that is best aided by having a highly robust STEM workforce that generates ideas and growth which can be leveraged globally (thereby making the US economy wealthier). That wealth does trickle down the average joe.
There is a reason that a cop in the US can make 75K/year, versus 10k/year in Mexico. Our robust STEM workforce and innovative ability of US industry being the main reason.
I don't agree that the top 0.1% are working on Wall Street even if the top 0.1% of earners are largely concentrated in the industry. Anyone in the top 5% of intelligence can make a good living on Wall Street if they have the right work ethic and can break in.
I don't agree that quant funds are comparable to traditional funds (I should have specified that). Quant funds make the market LESS efficient, not more -- they simply add noise. I'm not saying their returns aren't good and strategies not effective, but from a price equals value stand point, what they are doing is unrelated to market efficiency from what I have gathered.
What STEM capacity are you referring to? Curing cancer? This argument is overblown. What exactly are we so lacking in right now? We import most of our engineers from overseas anyway. Do we need more people working on figuring out how to monetize click ads? That's where the top engineering talent is these days, not something productive.
I come from a lower middle class family (household income ~$50K), and that's common among my extended family as well. I'd say only 5% of my extended family attended college.
I stopped attending most family gatherings over the past year because they just talk shit non stop. I've been incredibly fortunate during the previous 2 years and made a decent sum of money in finance. I drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, and my family despises me for it. They say it's people like me that causes their foreclosures, cut their jobs, and ruined their lives. I like to think they're just trying to shift blame for their mistakes, but it's tough since they're family.
That must be a true test for you. I have no idea what I would do in that situation, is it with your immidiate family as well?
I come from a similar background (low-income family), but my family is the complete opposite.
All they really care about is how much I (or anybody else in the family) make. I really honestly think that they are guilt-tripping you just because they fucked up on their own dime.
My brothers (an engineer and an achitect) tell me that every investment banker they have met is " the scum of the earth."
Its like this, finance is needed and thus the ppl to do it. HOWEVER, to make the claim that these ppl have to be the smartest amongst is not only absurd, it is literally just incorrect. Example: Joe is a genius, Mike is of normal intelligence. Joe gets hired into finance because they're sitting on the cash required to attract someone like Joe. Joe, being human, will go wherever the most money is offered because hey, everybody loves money. Joe goes into finance and creates absurd, opaque financial instruments that send the world economy into shit, because quite frankly, he was smart enough to create them. Would Mike have been smart enough to create them? Mike, figuring hes not smart enough to go into finance, goes into some other field. In this position he will never be able to find cures, teach the youth, create formulas, etc, as well as Joe would have.
Now flip it, the money lies in these other fields thus they are able to attract Joe. Joe does all the previously mentioned things better than Mike could have (obvious gain to society there). Mike, figuring hes not smart enough to get into these fields, goes into finance. Mike doesnt have the mental horsepower Joe did to be able to think up and create these financial instruments (economy doesnt tank). I just dont see any area of finance that Mike is incapable of. Finance just pays the premium for Joe because "y the fuk not? We got the money to spare." They'd be literally retarded to think Mike is incapable of the work.
I just REALLY can't see how someone could make the argument that there isnt a net gain to society from the brain trust exiting finance. You could also argue that this must be preceded by the money doing so
Lol, Illini's the only person in this two page thread that has had something both substantial and educated to add.
I guess that statement still stands if I just leave the post at that.... so I'll just add a few things:
if you think that every single person against banking is just jealous you're an idiot. You're one of those dumb people who do the whole, generalizing "everyone just wants money and people who can't get it blame people who do." If you can't see why that's stupid and just flat out wrong, that's just a testament to the intelligence of the finance community (though I'd hope most of you realize this isn't true). Sure, there are plenty of jealous people, but there are also plenty of people who couldn't give a shit about earning massive amounts and legitimately know about banking and think there is a lot wrong with the system. There are plenty of jealous, ignorant people sure. But if you're telling me that everyone who critiques the average banker (who usually is a smug douche, let's face it) is ignorant, stupid, or jealous, you're making a completely undefendable claim. Because a lot of people have problems with banking. And a lot of them know way more about finance than anyone on this forum, and are probably way smarter and more knowledgeable than anyone on this forum. I'm not saying they're all like this. But to blow it off as a none issue because most people who support it are stupid is literally nonsensical.
Parents don't like the life you lead? 'Fuck you, Mom and Dad.' See how it feels when you're makin' their fuckin' Lexus payments.
Haters gonna hate, this pretty much says it all:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/zNiiHVYnQ6A
I've always found it odd how finance guys and wannabe finance guys try to portray themselves as renegades, or mavericks when the entire culture and role of finance breads conformity and serving established corporate and institutional power structures, etc... Perhaps we're just as human as everyone else and instinctively want to break away from the system, even though this usually manifests itself in starting another finance/corporate venture, or buying experiences where we can lose ourselves, albeit in a conformist manner (bottle service, sports cars, excessive partying, etc...).
Pretty profound as far as coke-fueled rants go.
People who shit on Finance in many cases have no clue as to what Finance is about. Many of them listen to the bullshit that they see on msnbc or some other similar platform and have no interest in seeking out information themselves and forming their own opinion. For instance, many who would protest derivs have no clue what a deriv was. In high school, years back, I was researching everything I could on Finance and I'm from the South. You've got dumbass kids in NY who grow up within 20 mins of the NYSE and haven't learned a damn thing about high Finance. I had a brokerage account in high school and grew up far away from Wall Street. You've got kids who grew up right near Wall Street, know nothing about it, but yet are avid members of the Occupy Wall Street movement now that they're in their 20ish idealistic, revolutionary phase who are clueless when it comes to Finance but see only their argument.
willing to be that a good portion of the people complaining in this thread probably took jokes wrong or are completely exaggerating.
you fucksticks don't know the difference between liberalism and leftism? did you flunk out of remedial school for retards?
I'd argue that "liberalism" has become a synonym for "leftism," whatever its origins. Is this totally false?
im surprised more people don't get this - reputation matters. its that gut reflex people have about our industry that has changed, and honestly, given our recent demonstration of our ability to fuck up their lives, its only natural. do some people not directly responsible get blamed (fx desks) and other get off scott free (regulators), yes. if this bothers you that much, leave. some hot girls, having no incentive to do homework, will brush you off. I don't know enough about middle school teachers to really judge but I still look down on them, judgments and stereotypes are inherent to human nature and it takes effort to withhold them, and sometimes people just can't be bothered.
if you really want to avoid this reaction, and think the stereotype doesn't fit you, you can always dance around the question. personally finance is a large part of who I am right now, both as a way to make money and something interesting I can spend my time doing, and I'd want anyone I was actually considering dating to know about it.
The American version of English has bastardised the meaning of the word liberal. Most Americans would associate the word "liberal" with policies that constrain freedom, centralise control in a bureaucracy (usually government or some national body) and that intervenes in the private lives of citizens and potentially other countries and communities. This is very inconsistent with the actual meaning of the word (almost the opposite). This is mainly due to the history of US politics (civil war), propaganda from the political right and the rise of the corporation as a dominant force in American society. The way the word Liberal is used as a pejorative is indicative of this. In the US it has lost the meaning it has had in the rest of the English speaking world.
Here's an article comparing the English and US uses of the word http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-10658070 The author makes some decent points, but I feel has some biases given his BBC/NPR background.
It's probably worth contrasting this with Classical Liberalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism There are arguments to whether capitalism and the corporate form is antithesis to Classical Liberalism, but that debate is not worth getting into if we're only just learning the meaning of the word "liberal" on WSO...
There has to be some irony here in college students who pay no taxes and have no assets or income, accuse people perfectly happy to pay 45% taxes for the benefits they receive of having a mental disorder.
Start working, pay said taxes, THEN you have the right to call folks who want higher or lower taxes crazy. What I see instead is a bunch of College Republicans suffering from the Democrat equivalent of Bush Derangement Syndrome.
I say this as an apolitical observer who wants KNOWLEDGE and not ideology.
How Do You Deal With People That Can't Stand Wall Street? (Originally Posted: 06/10/2016)
Just for some background: I come from a low-middle class city in New York and I have friends from all backgrounds ranging from wealth to poverty. Because of this, I have been able to understand the perception of Wall Street from many different walks of life.
Ever since I started developing an interest in Finance, I have found myself in conversations with people who can't stand Wall Street. When this happens, I have usually responded with some sort of rebuttal but it never seems like it goes anywhere. From then on I just find myself nodding my head in appeasement.
How do you usually defend yourself from people like this in these conversations, wether it be family, close friends etc.?
As most of you would guess, the argument always revolves around the idea that everyone is corrupt, and is ruining the world right in front of Main Street's eyes. I honestly think it is quite ignorant and silly to say all that but obviously that is just me and everyone has their own opinion.
I know there was a post recently here about why people hate Wall Street, and I completely understand why. However, this post is geared towards how do you deal with the hate and what do you usually say in responses. I am new to the industry and would love to hear some of the opinions of those that have been around.
I don't.
Stop caring about what other people think
+1 Absolutely agree. I don't say anything when I see someone in IT, the industry I don't like.
usually the people who hate everything the Wall Street represents, don't necessarily understand its function
thus you shouldn't give a f, not everything is perfect on the industry but it has its role in our society (and a very important one)
Just don't talk about it. With my working class family I don't talk about politics or Wall Street on purpose, because I know going into it we'll disagree and the conversation will take an edgier tone than I'd like. That said, if you really get forced into the conversation, it's usually just a quick "did you know my BB actually does x, y, z which has a,b,c positive impacts. And I do 1,2,3, which just several weeks ago allowed me to understand how I was able to help this biotech firm raise money for a new cancer treatment."... since most people don't know what's done on wall Street, just a quick reminder of the good and necessity of the street usually changes the conversation.
there have been numerous threads on this, use the search function
a more recent one: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/why-everyone-hates-wall-street
in short:
don't worry about what others think. the people who matter in life know you're a good person or not, and if they really care, they'll strive to learn about why a career in finance does not mean you're bernie madoff
don't engage in these conversations. if someone just wants to berate you, rather than correcting them, just say "well everybody's entitled to their opinion" or something like that. if they ask you what you think, they're legitimately interested, otherwise they just want to blow off steam, and no good can be accomplished by arguing with those people.
I was recently at a cocktail party at a fraternity brother of mine just got engaged to this super liberal girl who said something along the lines of "all people in finance are crooks, financial advisors are crooks, etc" not knowing what I do for a living. neither he nor I corrected her, my fiancee didn't correct her, we just changed the subject "so hilary, how has your hemp necklace business been going?"
I think in 99% of situations, that's the way to go.
for you, since you don't even work in finance, I think you should keep your mouth shut and focus your attention towards networking and bettering your resume. if you actually get into finance, then maybe your family will become curious about what you do, but at this point it seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, which isn't a great quality.
Lol @hemp necklace business. Sounds about right
How often do you have in-depth conversations about the moral merits of Wall Street? This sounds more like a corny ass freshman thought exercise.
I pay them 4.50 and thank them for my morning coffee
haha
You're paying way too much for coffee.
smile, nod, laugh, leave
Don't talk or associate with people who irritate you. Life's too short to deal with unwarranted negativity.
Some people will stigmatize various careers/occupations for whatever reason, even the one's that are the most respected by society as a whole. If you're a lawyer, people assume you lie for a living. If you're a doctor, people assume you scam insurance companies. Etc.
Depends on what level. If they take issue with some of the extreme abuses but understand that not all finance is corrupt I'll tolerate their tirades. If they're Elizabeth Warren wannabes I simply cut them out of my life. No need to deal with morons.
Tell em you're a rockstar teller at the bank.
Where are you hanging out that there are that many poor people?
While Trading On Wheels' may have provided the most perfect response I've ever seen on this forum (sb'd) I am waiting for a turn on Friday after 5:00, so here's my .02.
I, like you, come from a low-middle class suburb of a major city. My family hates wall-street and big business. The friends I grew up with hate wall street and big business. The teachers from my grade school hate wall street and big business, and so does the local grocery store clerk.
Obviously I have different levels of concern about these different sources' opinions of my work (read "life"), ranging from 'mildly interested in changing their mind so Christmas can be more pleasant for everyone' to 'not at all' to 'have a lot of fun making them feel stupid'.
So first; my family. For example, I have good talks with my father regularly about the macro economy, oil industry (we are in Texas), foreign political interests, and domestic policy. These were originally initiated by me although now he will start them, and flow from my knowledge of finance and economics and the oil industry (which I cover). These talks help us share ideas and are generally productive.
So, method 1: Demonstrate why knowledge from this industry is important and how it positively influences large ideas the counter-party is interested in. This is very different from trying to teach someone how and why capital markets and easily accessible credit improve their lives. However, this requires a reasonably logical second party.
Then there's the guy at the corner store: See "Best Response" above
Then there's those people who have extremely deeply held, strong, emotional opinions regarding Wall Street. These are typically adult children; ie, 20 - 26 year old's who live with their upper-middle class parents and work at radio shack. These are the most fun. Rile them up a little bit (shouldn't be hard, just talk about how much you hate SJWs, or how Obama is a bad president) then mention you work on wall street. Que the incendiary sputum.
Herein lies method 3: Test their basic knowledge, publicly.
Then say something along the lines of. "Well that's all good and well, and you seem to know a lot about the issues at hand... Do you think you can tell me the difference between a commercial bank and an investment bank?"
This has proven to be gold for me in terms of reactions, but any level-headed request to explain what their position (read, "what they saw on youtube within the last 8 hours"), or explain their knowledge of the industry is sure to work on people in this category.
If you tell people you work on wall street or say you work in m&a most of the time they will say something like "wow that's very stressful work." Very few people will actually start throwing stones. M&A probably gets off easiest with the least scrutiny and most sympathy, but if you're a trader, research analyst, or a salesman (institutional or retail), some people might associate you with a crappy Hollywood movie or TV show. But seriously, interns and analysts have no real ground to complain about public scrutiny. If it bothers you that some people view wall street negatively, how will you survive when you actually make it and are in the papers? I have friends who never did anything wrong, but because the public is clueless and the papers try to portray them as villains people threatened them and their families.
I say 2 things : I talk about my aunt Sara that lost her house and credit and say its the greed in our industry that caused it. I also point to me and the paycheck I get and how am able to support the family more and say its the industry also. That way I leave them more confused but less aggravated at wall street. There is good and bad in everything.
Just explain to them what it is that you actually do. All those tech companies that they support, the small business owners that leftists glorify, the hospitals, pensions, health insurance companies, everything, only exist because of the industry that you work in. Without finance and idea is just that. It cannot manifest.
So I worked in credit derivatives several years before the crash at a BB, and I have dealt with this question many times (primarily in the 08/09 financial crisis.
The simple way to respond is "why?" Hear the person out, but in almost all cases they will fail to come up with a coherent response. It is easy to go into therapist mode with people you don't want to burn, and every question from you needs to start with "why." Your average person has no idea what finance is or why it is necessary so don't fight them on it. The general perception is Wolf of Wall St behavior, and the media pushes an anti-finance agenda.
Another tactic is asking a person how their retirement will be funded. Most union members have no idea that they are the largest backers of PE and HFs.
who gives a fck?! Hopefully, you'll reach a pt in your life where you don't give a fck what others think of you. In life, you attract what you project; let that take its course. Don't waste energy on trying to change closed minds.
Let them be, haters going to always hate. I went to a school that is full of anti-Wall streeters and corporate america, probably the only one that worked on wall street from the school too.
I hear ya.
Depending on the person, I might try to talk to them, as the case with some relatives who have government jobs. I ask them who administers their pension fund. They usually have no idea. So I point out that their pension fund isn't administered by some weak-chinned accountant in some moldy state office building. It's administered by people in IB who know what they're doing. And that's why even though the state's underfunded the pension fund for X years and spent the pension money instead on midnight basketweaving classes, they'll still have their pension when they retire.
If someone's just a jerk, I sum it up with: "Oh well. Capitalism's a bitch."
Dear god, is politely changing the subject and navigating a conversation into tranquil waters that difficult for so many people on WSO? If you can't manage that in a simple conversation with friends/family/randoms, then handling clients and negotiations in a banking context will likely be far beyond your skills.
serious question: would you college kids rather bang margot robbie monthly for 1 year or get an offer from GS TMT?
That mental image was the perfect way to start my morning
What's the difference?
It doesn't take 12 licks to get to the cream inside. I'm going with GS TMT
Agreed with changing the subject. That, or just mention that their industry wouldn't exist without WS. Either way works fine.
Adding on to what everyone has said... it is hard to prove to a population where only 30% have college degrees (even less when you count real colleges like the basic T300) the complexities of a financial crisis and the different roles in Wall Street. 30% of Americans can't even name the frickin VP.
It really all boils down to that people want simple answers to complex problems. Bottom feeding politicians like Bernie Sanders give that simple answer to the gullible masses. They buy his crap because he has (Sen.) in front of his name and now feel like they have a leg to stand on when discussing financial markets and the economy.
This is the correct answer.
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