It has been a long time since I've posted something constructive on these fora but lately, I have been getting a lot of questions on LinkedIn about Big 4 valuation, especially from those in MSF programs and recent MSF grads. Like most MSFs, I was completely unaware of the diverse career paths that finance has to offer. I knew that there were hedge fund managers and bankers but that was basically it. There has been increased attention devoted to this field on here as well so I think it would be helpful to contribute and to share my experiences.
This post is intended for current/recent MSFs as well as those that are generally interested in Big 4 valuation. I will lay out the pros and cons as I understand them and will answer any question, about anything, insofar as it doesn't get me in trouble. I will cover a lot in this thread.
1) Background
I graduated from WUSTL's MSF in May, 2014. Since then I've had a short stint at a hedge fund and now I'm a Senior Associate working in Big 4 valuation, specializing in the Life Science Industry. As others have noted, there is a relatively wide range in engagement experience and in compensation. Because of this, my commentary will generally include a pretty wide range and a different set of recommendations.
2) Recruiting
This depends on which group and which firm you're in. Some firms like to hire exclusively from second tier MBA's and top-tier MSFs. Other firms go down the more traditional route of undergrads at the Associate level and second-tier MBAs at the Senior Associate/Manager level. I can tell you that as far as MSFs are concerned, Vanderbilt has a significant advantage in this space. Their worst graduates go to the top MSF groups in the country (typically Silicon Valley and New York). Higher ranked MBAs (top 15) will typically come in at the Manager level and will have a pretty easy time to Senior Manager.
3) Career Progression
It goes from Associate --> Senior Associate --> Manager --> Senior Manager --> Director --> Partner. At some firms, there really aren't directors. It's sort of an outdated title that's fading. A remnant of emulating banking.
It should take you about 2 - 3 year to progress at each level, excluding progression to Partner. I have seen the shittiest Associates make Senior Associate after three years. Managers and Senior Managers can hang out for a while but that usually happens when the individual lacks an impressive background. I've seen extremely competent Managers remain Manager for years because the market won't pay them more than what they're currently making with their MBA from the Gabelli or Zarb School of Business.
4) Pay
This is typically seen as the weak point in the field and why there's so much turnover at the junior level. Some people, especially those with friends in banking and the buy-side, get bonus envy. They hear their friends complain about egregious tax rates but deep down it gives them great satisfaction. In 2-3 years, you'll make as much, if not less, than a 21 year old kid with a newly minted bachelors degree from a target university that couldn't tell you the difference between alpha and beta. Such is life.
1. Associates - $65,000 - $85,000 (98% base salary)
2. Senior Associates - $90,000 - $120,00 (90% base salary)
3. Managers - $100,000 - $140,000 (80% base salary)
4. Senior Managers - ????
5. Partners - My partner lived in a building with Leonardo DiCaprio and had vacation homes all over the world. This probably isn't representative since he's a giant in the field and literally gets the biggest deals.
Big 4 valuation compensation is extremely base salary heavy. You don't really get meaningful bonuses until the Senior Manager level.
5) Work-life Balance
This is definitely a strong point. It's what keeps the good ones around even though, if they really wanted to, they could make 2x more in banking. It's all relative. At worse, if you're working in a very busy group, you'll do 70 chargeable hours a week. For those who don't know what a "chargeable hour" is, it means an hour of actual work. It works like this:
you have to charge a certain number of hours a week but you're encouraged to do more than the bare minimum (typically 40 hours a week). The more you work the higher is your "utilization" which basically determines your raise/bonus come year end (at the lower levels at least). At the same time, the engagements have certain budgets. If you charge too many hours to an engagement, you break the budget. People won't tell you this to your face, but breaking budgets gets you in trouble. A 120% utilization rate is not something to boast about.
Come summer time, you're working 9 - 5 max. At my current firm, you're allowed to leave at 3:00 PM. During this period you're mostly working with Senior Managers on proposals and pitches, trying to bring in revenue for busy season (it's busy because your working on audits as well as actual valuation projects for year end financial reporting). All in all, you can expect to work an average of 50 hours a week throughout the year.
6) Work/Engagement Experience
As I said in the introduction, there is a lot of variation in the field. In general though, there are really two types of Big 4 Valuation work:
1. Internal (Audit Assist)
2. External (Actual Valuation)
So, naturally, there are those that only do (1), those that only do (2) and those that do a combination of (1) and (2). Honestly, there are pros and cons to both types of projects.
Audit Assists - Basically you're given a valuation done by a competitors, take it apart, analyze the assumptions, methods and valuation output and determine whether or not they are reasonable. In practice, this means recreating schedules, running sensitivity analysis and writing memos highlighting the procedures performed. At some groups, this is all you do. The work is straightforward, it doesn't take a lot of time and it's relatively stress-free.
Actual Valuation - Here you create your own models, talk and present to clients, do extensive modeling and write reports highlighting the wonderful job you've done. The fees are much larger, the hours are much longer, the stress is much greater and your pay is.... exactly the same.. Remember, you don't really get bonuses in Big 4. All that work, that huge paycheck, all of it goes into your Partner's pocket and you just hope that he/she remembers you come year end evaluation time.
7) External Engagement Experience
There are different types of engagements. Some are more glamorous than others. A lot of it depends on what group and region you're in. For example, Silicon Valley groups will do a lot of VC financial reporting work and early-stage tech valuations. The East Coast gets a lot of early-stage biotech work and Houston will get a lot of oil and gas.
Below is a list of the types of projects you can expect:
1. Pre-acquisition PPAs (purchase price allocations) for Management Planning Purposes;
2. LBO modeling for ??? (no idea - have never done it and I don't know why we would do it);
3. Post-acquisition PPAs for financial reporting purposes;
4. Goodwill impairment testing for financial reporting purposes;
5. Contingent Consideration/Milestone Payment Valuation for financial reporting purposes;
6. Complex securities valuation (convertible preferred equity, tranche level valuation) for financial reporting purposes;
7. Legal entity valuation for tax purposes and for restructuring;
8, Fair Market Valuations (with cost approach) for regulatory requirements (anti-kickback) and management planning (usually team up with Consulting or Advisory for these types of projects);
9. Market research/feasibility studies for management planning purposes.
Some of you more astute observers have probably made the following observations: (1) that sounds like fucking accounting! and (2) do clients ever voluntarily seek out Big 4 valuation services without compulsion from government bodies?
To answer those questions: yes and no, not really.
There is a lot of accounting. You need to know when an engagement is ASC 718, or ASC 820 or IFRS 2. They have different definitions of fair value and different valuation standards (though they're converging). You need to know what a DTL is and how why/how a firm records one on its balance sheet. You need to know which assets are subject to amortization and which are not. So yeah, a good amount of accounting.
95% of the services you provide are mandated by government bodies. In other words, if your client did not pay for those services, big guys with large weapons would throw them in prison and would expropriate their fortunes. One bright side is that you get to help large, value producing companies lower their effective tax rate. That always makes me happy.
8) Applied Methods/Techniques
Big 4 Valuation, because it doesn't really need to cater to what the market actually cares about, has the privilege of being very academic. Some like this, some don't. I personally enjoy the wide variety of projects that I'm involved in. I feel that I'm constantly learning and I understand techniques and methods that my friends on the buy-side and sell-side know little about.
Of course, when I mention that to them, they remind me that they're not aware of these methods because no one in the real world gives a shit. I know from my experience at a Hedge Fund that if you start talking about tranche level, relevered volatility, Asian put option models to calculate DLOM, determining control premiums, etc., people start looking at you funny. The fund that I worked at basically laughed at DCF models. They only cared about observable, market inputs (comps).
So if you enjoy struggling with whether you should look at Damodoran ratings or CDS spreads to determine country risk premiums, then you will most likely enjoy your time at Big 4 valuation.
9) Exit Opportunities
This depends greatly on the engagement experience that you've accumulated. Legal entity valuation work really isn't transferable anywhere. Financial reporting valuation work, especially if you work on pre-transaction stuff, can get you into banking/buy-side if you have a strong background. I know people that transitioned from the Associate level at Big 4 Valuation to Moelis Capital, VC, UBS, Credit Suisse, etc. People that go down this path typically get a CFA and try to make the jump to buy-side/banking.
If, on the other hand, all you work on is Audit assists, then your best bet is to a CPA/ABV, progress through Big 4 valuation and one day transition into corporate finance.
I've covered a lot, so if anyone has any questions, please ask away.
Hey OP, thank you very much for doing this. I'm a recent grad currently in non-strategy consulting with zero finance experience besides my undergraduate coursework. In your opinion, which Big4 or even middle market accounting firm will give the best opportunity to work on IB/PE/VC transactions and valuations instead of accounting assignments. Also, I'm looking to begin a MSF program next year and my backup is Big4 valuations if I'm unable to get into IB or IM. I was wondering whether not being able to get the CPA license (I don't have enough accounting credits to satisfy most states) will be an issue in getting hired into any of these valuations groups?
Getting a CPA is not required and in many groups it's not expected. In general though, it's encouraged and there are sizable CPA bonuses. Most people go down the CFA route (though they most likely shouldn't).
Transitioning into PE/VE is tough. Investment banking is the more traditional route. That said, Deloitte and PwC will give you a marginally better chance because they come out on top when it comes to prestige. But again, it will really come down to the engagement experience that you acquired in your time at the Big 4. Significant transaction experience will be most important.
Hey Esuric, thanks for the response. I interned at a Big4 and was told by a director that people in the investment banking corporate finance arm of the Big4 typically come from Audit. Do you see anyone from Valuations going into the investment banking arm of your Big4? Also, does valuations give you any skills related to asset/investment management?
Great post, very informative.
Off-topic, but I'm curious. Is this the same Eusric from Mises all those years back?
Yeah haha.
Bananaed this comment to cancel out the shit lol
Thanks for doing this. I am currently doing an internship in this department while I finish my MSc.
What types of projects would help me to move into banking? I have read that you said pre-deal, but could you be more specific what projects are those?
So far I have worked on the second opinion of a 350M fund (mostly in the WACC/Cost of equity); analyzing the reasonability of the discount rates assumed by a found for their assets; and valuing a contract of an O&G firm. Do you think this is valuable experience? How should I 'sell' myself in order to move to banking? Thanks!
Pre-deal valuation work is typically for advisory. Specifically, they want to get a sense of how it would impact earnings, the magnitude of potential tax amortization benefits, etc. To be honest, I've never worked on one and I don't know many that have. I think PwC has a strong presence in this area but I'm not too sure.
Banks are not going to be impressed with the fact that you've calculated discount rates. Calculating discount rates in the context of doing a broader valuation, and assessing the reasonableness of your valuation output (by benchmarking to comps) is something you can talk about on an interview. In other words, they're more interested in a multi-step process - a valuation from start to finish and how you became comfortable with the results.
I can confirm that PwC does allot of pre-deal PPA work - especially when there are tax structuring considerations in the mix. During my time with the firm 3/4 PPAs were initiated prior to announcement (could be specific to the sector group I was in) during the same stage as financial due diligence. We always would finalize the initial estimates after the deal closed but the work was more or less completed prior to close.
This is spot on in terms of what to expect - although there are some great projects that flow through the better teams - you just have to hustle hard to get on them.
One other benefit is that it's pretty much impossible to get fired in Big 4 Val. If the market turns down they don't cut heads the way other firms do. And since the work is largely compliance related there will always be work to carry you through.
At the junior level (specifically Associate) you will see the best people leave between one and two years into the job. If you care about getting paid and the potential to exit to the buy-side, leaving seems to be the right move.
This is spot on. Job security is one benefit that I forgot to mention.
What are you thoughts on Big 4 val groups vs other big val shops (H&L, D&P, etc.)? It seems like at the non-big 4 shops you would not have to do audit assist work which would be a plus when recruiting for banking?
Also, do you think big 4 TS or valuation is the 'better' option when thinking about lateraling to banking?
Thanks! Great post
Do you know when these groups recruit for associates from undergrad? Is it too late now for a graduating Senior?
They usually make return offers to the summer/winter interns. The new recruits come in in June. I think you still have time but it will be difficult if you didn't previously intern there.
lol..."It has been a long time since I've posted something constructive"
thanks for doing the ama, will bump it up on the frontpage a couple times this week
Just curious as to what your career aspirations are, do you plan on sticking it out in valuations etc? I've worked for both independent shops and public accounting firms, to me they offer very different experiences.
I'm just more curious than anything
Can you talk about the recruiting process coming from an MSF? I know you did hedge fund first, so how did you get this position?
Yeah did you have any other offers coming out of your MSF? I would imagine corp fin would've been a likely option for you. Does your msf program place well for AM or IB?
Could you explain the value-add you bring to clients(external valuation). Also, how do fees compare to other groups in the firm? Obviously valuation groups tend to be smaller in nature but you mentioned the partner that made bank(although he is one of the top dogs). Do valuation partners make similar comp as audit/tax partners? Last but not least, since you got your masters, do you still have to get a certification (cpa/CFA/asa)?
Excellent Questions
Usually our clients don't have large finance or accounting teams and need assistance with fair value, financial reporting requirements. The larger clients have sizable finance teams but they may be preoccupied with a merger, debt offering, restructuring, etc., and therefore request our assistance. Occasionally, we'll have a certain expertise in a particular area. For example, Big 4 shops utilize something called the "cost approach" to value contractual agreements. They do this in order to assess whether the contracted fee falls within fair market value for regulatory compliance. The valuation approach is fairly specialized and the big 4 are in a unique position to do it do their cross-functional resources (mainly from advisory).
The fees depend widely on the group. At my current group, FMV's pull in the largest fees (somewhere around $250,000 - $400,000). At my last group, we focused almost exclusively on Legal Entity Valuations for tax/restructuring. The fees for those types of engagements are much larger. I worked on one that had a 17 million dollar fee. I led one that was a $2 million fee.
I really don't know how much partners make, especially those in other service lines.
You don't need a certification for promotion but it helps. I don't have one but I'm planning on going down the CFA route.
Hey, thanks for doing this. Do you see any way to jump to equity research after a few years out of undergrad?
Hi there,
I am a manager in Accounting Advisory in another Big4. How easy/difficult would it be for me to transition to the valuations team? Does the fact that I'm a manager make it more difficult to move departments?
..
I've seen a lot of people come over from other service lines but its typically from something comparable, such as transfer pricing. That said, we've had audit managers lateral into Bval. It's easier to transfer at the Senior Associate/Manager level. Big 4 bval has a very hard time filling up those slots since most of the talent tries to lateral into banking/buy-side. It all depends on how well you interview but it shouldn't be hard to get interviews.
Hi Esuric - Thanks for posting this. As a recent MSF graduate, what experiences/skills are necessary to get an interview at Big 4 Business Valuation?
I have a couple problems with your perspective and view of Big 4 Valuation groups.
1) There is a problem with an overly academic view on valuation. Big 4 valuation groups force valuations to conform to very rudimentary DCF templates and create OVERLY academic discount rate calculations that are fundamentally flawed on a practical basis. There are numerous examples of things that don't work in the real world as they do in academics as a result of market pricing, interest rate environments, etc. The inability to account for those things, not to mention the inability to even understand those things completely outmodes the valuation work done by the Big 4.
2) Modeling in the Big 4 is a far cry from anything that you would do in banking, PE, or even Corp Dev. I know people in your group and I know what they do in their job and it doesn't cut it. Not knocking the industry, it has its place; especially in regards to impairment testings and PPAs.
3) I have interacted with senior people in Big 4 valuation... your group in particular and found them to be totally unaware to the broader market. They understand and can drive a DCF with basic adjustments like a BOSS, but they are technically deficient to apply any real market knowledge to valuation since they are so far removed from the actual market. So yes you know the most academically correct way to create a WACC and apply country risk premiums, but you know what..... I'll just apply a required rate of return for an investment and it will be a better indication of price than a rate that attempts to price future cash flows using historical data (Academically not possible FYI).
3a) Valuation groups DO HAVE structured products guys that use ACTUAL complex shit.. E.G. Gaussian Copula models to model the default risk in CDO portfolios. That is stuff that the regular Business Valuation guys DO NOT TOUCH AND KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. But yes, the topics you mentioned don't come up for Bankers and buyside guys.. But that is because they aren't relevant and add no value.
3b) You yourself mention that you don't do LBO modeling and have no reason to do it. Which means that you don't do 3 statement modeling... Which to be 100% honest is the most essential modeling skill in corporate finance. Its actually hypocritical to condescend on bankers and buyside guys for not doing DLOMs and building out extravagant discount rate formulas when you don't even know how to model a business. If anything buyside guys are MORE correct given their position in investments. PE guys don't have to give a fuck what the "market rate of return is based on x, y, and z" they care what their hurdle is and their cost of capital so they care how much they should pay to get a 20-25% IRR.
4) People RARELY leave for ACTUAL buyside opportunities OR banking opportunities. I would 100% not view Big 4 Valuation as a gateway to banking or the buyside. The people that you see at buyside shops from the Big 4 Valuation groups are 99.9% of the time.... you guessed it... DOING VALUATION. Banks also don't generally take people from Big 4 valuation because as I have mentioned above, they don't develop any real valuation skills, not like a banking analyst does. That said, I know a handful that have escaped into banking.
Agree with several things here, but you are missing the major point.
Big 4 Valuation groups do not provide their services to companies for investment purposes, but rather for regulatory purposes, although there are pre-deal projects which have an actual impact on management's decision making when considering a purchase. I've worked with a Big 4 valuations team which helped us out on a deal by providing us with a pre-deal PPA model and senior management took it very seriously since it has an impact on the bottom line-->this affects our EPS. They have also done due diligence on an IP of a target company, which senior management took very seriously, although this was more for a tax purpose but it had an impact on the price. However, their ultimate client is the government, PCAOB, SEC, etc, so they cater to that. They are far from the market because they don't NEED to care about the market.
At the end, valuation is all relative. No one knows what the real price or value of a company is since you have such biased opinions coming from the sell-side and buy-side. Especially the sell-side. We see all I-bankers as glorified real estate agents, nothing more. Not shitting on them but people need to realize that they don't actually provide that much value to the deal except by finding us suitable candidates. They are more like glorified headhunters if I think about it. I am strictly speaking for M&A here. Equity/Debt capital markets guys provide tons of value, but don't get any prestige for some reason.
At least in the valuation groups, they can agree on a valuation due to their academic approach, but I've heard of instances where they will argue on the country risk premiums being used, which I find quite entertaining. I'm a little biased here because FYI, my corp. dev. group MAINLY(60-70%) consists of former valuation guys. We actually prefer them over I-bankers since they have the accounting/regulatory knowledge which comes in handy when you are in a regulatory-driven industry(FS). They are also generally easier to work with unlike entitled I-bankers.
not sure if srs.... LOL. ppl pref. Big4 over IBD? Classic. you are biased and your corpdev group must do about zero deals. Hahahahah
pls tell more fun stories
Valuation doesn't do LBO modeling, which means you don't do iterative modeling and you don't know how to do an operating model
You can't do an operating model so I'm curious how you do M&A modeling and run Accretion Dilution models. Especially since as you guys mentioned you don't do deals or diligence or even evaluate companies
Companies have internal target returns and capital return requirements for new investments.. Generally related to ROIC. You know that dumb banking interview question... Do you invest in a project if your IRR is less than a ROIC. You wouldn't know that since you can't model
Please elaborate on why you guys simply prefer academic guys in your group to execute an M&A transaction? Or is it simply because your company isn't willing to pay bankers enough to work there so they take the B team
I'm not sure what your little tirade is about but we're in agreement - big 4 valuation is very academic. Some would say too academic. That's really a value judgement but I tend to agree. I explained why it's overly academic - namely that valuation practitioners don't cater to the needs of the market. They are completely decoupled from it and instead cater the demands of regulators. I don't know what all your shouting is about.
Beyond that, let's discuss some of the issues you raise:
No one cares about DCF models. Not in Big 4, definitely not on the buyside and not even really on the sell side. All DCF models are very wrong, including your shitty three-statement models. Your discount rate is wrong; your forecasts are wrong; all of the components of your precious ROIC are inaccurately estimated and you end up with a bad value. When it comes to valuing businesses, DCFs are about as useful as an asshole on an elbow. MPEEM's are useful for financial reporting because they're able to provide indications of value for individual assets within a broader portfolio - they're able to value assets for which there are no observable valuation inputs/multiples.
We don't typically do LBO work for our clients (though some do, apparently), as I mentioned, but we do review lbo models fairly frequently. Big 4 Bval reviews a lot of internal valuation work done by PEs. Additionally, we typically assess the WACC in the context of the IRR and the WARA. So no, we don't ignore hurdle rates. Every review conducts a WACC/WARA/IRR reconciliation.
We also do a lot of valuation work for pre-revenue, early stage biopharma and VCs when it comes to their financial reporting requirements for convertible preferred equity and employee-based stock options. Here we value specific tranches and securities within the capital structure with OPM based distribution waterfalls. We relever tranche level volatility with Merton's equation and use Asian put option models to calculate incremental DLOMs. Is it financial engineering? No, but I'd say it's somewhat academic. More academic than what some of my IB friends have worked on, such as hole-punching and table-arrangement-modeling.
Big 4 Bval, with all of its flaws, overly academic (and often incorrect) valuation approaches, emphasis on accounting (book vs tax depreciation), etc., provides substantial modeling and writing skills along with industry knowledge, for those that are interested. You have to read and write a lot. Analyst reports, valuation guidance from the AICPA, industry reports, statistical benchmark studies, etc. It's also a fairly safe career choice that's not as cyclical as traditional finance functions.
Finally, people transition into IB all the time. It's the most common exit opp and in fact, people have been less interested in it. A lot, especially in life sciences, target VCs or corporate finance (for more laid back lifestyles). It's not hard to a get a VC interview with a life science, big 4 background (though the person interviewing may have a similar type of inferiority complex).
Anyways. Thanks for the contribution.
BIGGGGG 4444444444444444444444444444444444444
You blew up a guy's Big 4 AMA thread previously and in general do nothing but try bashing people while showing off behind a keyboard. This has been the same story for years now. I'm assuming there is a reason you aren't a Certified User yet. Please start actually adding value to this forum or at least stop contributing to its decline...
In an effort of peace. Big 4 Valuation is a great plan B or C for kids gunning for IB and for whatever reason falling short. Selling it as a gateway to IB isn't totally true. Kids from Big 4 Advisory/corporate finance have a hard enough time lateraling into IB, so why would it be easier for Valuation?
Buyside exits from Valuation groups simply don't happen. Profiles you see online of people in PE and HFs are still doing middle office valuation. I know of 1 guy that is front office in a hedge fund after Big 4 and it was a huge networking effort and he is a sharp guy.
Bval is Advisory; corporate finance is IB (typically MM private placements). Thanks.
We honestly have had better relationships with this particular valuations group, so we target them more often. I know that this group assists in the their internal corp. dev. (the good performers) so I guess they actually get more experience than your usual valuations guy. That's not to say that we don't hire any I-bankers. Lots here and they are all great. I am one myself:P
When interviewing, we've just gotten better impressions from these guys on AVERAGE than your typical BB type and both types nail every technical. Not sure if you know the comp. structure for corp. dev. but if you are coming in after 2 years of BB IBD you will pretty much take a small pay cut at any firm. Although my firm actually pays quite well. If you come with 2 years of IBD or Big 4 Val (3 years) you get 120k plus 30-50% bonus. AND stock.
Nothing against I-bankers as said before.
"In other words, if your client did not pay for those services, big guys with large weapons would throw them in prison and would expropriate their fortunes"
This seriously made me laugh.
Btw, someone please educate me on how to quote someone's post in pieces: not an entire post, just a sentence or two without deleting every line except for the one I'd like to quote.
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