Anyone have any firms/groups with notoriously bad culture, comp, returns, dealflow, etc. that you’d recommend steering clear of at all costs? I’m talking places with toxic cultures, total grind houses, and zombie funds etc.
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Apollo.
Their returns are great. Culture is trash.
Is that just because they end up with all the hardos from banking.
Yeah. The WORST, by a mile.
Horrible culture but they are phenomenally good at making money - both for LPs and themselves. If you are a psychopath and love money then there is probably no better place to be.
Partners Group
Why
PGs pay is awful. They are a fund of funds trying to be a direct PE shop.
Historically yes. But look at their deals 2020-2022, huge exits and 1bn+ check sizes. Pay isn't market but hours don't go above 55 on most teams
Found the Partners Group "PE Direct Investment Associate"
If one was coming from a blue chip UMM/MF background + H/S MBA (e.g., H&F Advent AmSec NMC Berkshire type) but was hell-bent on Denver, which would you gravitate towards between PG vs. the handful of random MM names there (and not blue chip MM like HGGC or FFL but like truly random MM fund)
Apollo
Cerberus
Platinum
HIG
All are firms I've had ceos tell me they refuse to let them in on a process because the partners are dick heads and they'd never sell to them no matter the price they offered.
Take that for what its worth.
You just named all of the value-oriented funds. None of these will be buying anything in any auction process and will not be your highest bidder. That's not how they generate alpha.
Agree overall but Platinum at least will participate in auctions, particularly if it is one they think will be busted. Hanging around the hoop ends up being very painful for the associate on the deal team
Bruh they show up at every auction regardless of how dog shit their bid is. All those names are coincidentally sweaty af
How is comp at these funds? I know HIG tends to pay lower and Apollo tends to pay the highest. Any insight on the other two?
HIG will give you 10x1 leverage on co-invest though which could make up for it.
On a side note, interested to see what happens with Platinum. They have a portfolio of utter dog shit right now - legit half of its portco level issued debt is trading distressed.
To be fair all the levered loans are trading like shit now. Isn’t the Citrix debt deal massively underwater? Bankers have to incur $10+ billion of loss to get rid of the paper.
Consultant SO has worked with one of these before in a DD and can attest they treat people like shit (both consultants and their own) as well as having a terrible culture.
Are you talking about Platinum here? Regarding treating consultants and employees badly?
Platinum doesn’t give carry to VPs and comp is low. Economics as an employee are among the worst of any fund particularly when you take into account the fact that they clearly have the capacity to pay more given their fund size
Onex - horrible culture.
Is this for their TO or NY office?
Both.
credit or PE
Not OP but credit is very good culture from what I've heard
LMAO - have been on calls with members of both ONEX NY and Toronto. Associate I mainly dealt with had fat bags under his eyes whenever he went cam on - nice guy tho. Everyone above him was always fresh and upbeat
Onex returns have been pretty weak for their last two funds. Seems like they have struggled to raise a larger new fund in the market too.
Agree with all the above names. Would add Audax (just brutal) and Silverlake / Veritas (fantastic shops, just unsustainable Work life balance)
+1 for Veritas. Baby Apollo.
Baby APO without the comp
But Veritas is more tech focused and less value oriented right? Would love to hear more insight.
I think SL or Veritas are probably worth it for the experience
Agreed - just wanted to flag though as I know multiple associates who have quit there in less than a year
How bad is Audax?
Audax juniors get absolutely grinded, and a good number leave to other shops. I've heard this has led to a pretty dramatic shortfall of junior talent. However, given the strategy and staffing, you'd get tremendous experience.
Any growth equity firms to avoid?
Norwest
Why?
PSG. Add-on sweatshop.
PSG and TCV are known to be sweaty
Only TCV enterprise. Consumer side is chill.
Any word on BX culture wise?
heard the REPE group is super sweaty/cutthroat. not sure about corp PE
HIG
For Chicago firms I'd avoid Waud, GTCR FinTech, maybe Linden (though I hear it's getting a bit better)
You could always work at Shore Capital Fraternity
Just curious why you called it shore capital fraternity?
What’s up w shore?
What’s up with shore ??
Thoughts on MDP?
you will get that ass rekt at MDP boi
Most large funds are pretty sweaty, but in terms of lesser known sweatshops - Marlin Equity, Riverside, Atlas, Cerberus, Audax, Platinum, HIG, Summit, HGGC, Vector, FFL.
Tell Tale Signs:
- Deep Value
- Operationally Focused
- Heavy Add-Ons
- Low Deal Velocity
Surprising names on this list! What makes you say HGGC and FFL other than their broad operational focus?
Why is summit rough?
Any more info on FFL and Summit? Those seem out of place
I’ve heard Summit is rough but FFL is a new one for me.
Do you mean Altas?
Pretty sure they mean Atlas Holdings
+1 TRC is super sweaty
Second this
Does low deal velocity mean they take too long to close a deal and drag out a process to wear down the seller?
HIG does a lot of deals relative to fund size. Not sure what he means.
Flexpoint/Corsair
Most FIG funds suck.
Why do most suck?
Second Corsair
I've heard from ex-top brass at a MF tell me that a lot of the LA-based funds have some super sus characters working for them and that his old fund would've never considered hiring anyone from them. Arrowroot Capital comes to mind as one with some particularly problematic leadership from what I've been told through the grapevine.
Why Arrowroot? What did you hear?
More of a family office than legit investment house. Their last fund was really small (sub 100mm) and well under target.
Cove Hill. Apparently it’s a total sweatshop with a toxic culture and they have had a lot of recent turnover at the Associate level
Has it gotten any better?
Yikes. Any idea where they all lateraled to?
A few went to startups, one went back to his MBB, one to some public sector finance job
The only turnover I've seen are from consultants who had very different expectations of WLB. Most of the bankers have stayed for senior associate positions...
Could we get some insight from people closer to the firm? Have heard both that it's a great place to work and that it's a sweatshop.
bump
Gamut capital.
Second year analysts seeing the funds they took offers from mentioned on this thread
Sightway Capital - Two Sigma. Ton of turnover, no new deals since 2018.
Whitehorse Liquidity - just read the thread on them from earlier this year
Z Capital might be headed for zombie territory
What's the background on them?
It's been a little while since last time I heard anything but returns were pretty bad for a while and they were struggling to retain talent.
Arent these guys your classic loan to own?
General thoughts on TB and Francisco?
Have friends at TB - I think hours are rough but their middle / upper management people are supposedly awesome. Bright people think you will just get worked as associate / sr associate.
Thanks for the reply. What does rough hours entail from a PE perspective? Unsure what the "norm" is for most shops. TIA
True that Chicago funds are generally a bit more chill than NY counterparts? Referring to UMMs like GTCR/BDT/MDP
GTCR is not that chill
Lol @ GTCR being chill.. have heard horror stories
GTCR and MDP are both absolute dog shit culture wise. no insight on BDT
Last two homies there burned out and left for other funds. Negative chill factor over there.
MDP is def not chill lol
People seem to like working at BDT
Have heard good things about BDT but GTCR is group dependent
GTCR is very group specific from what I've heard from people who work there. The clear consensus is to avoid the FS&T team like the plague; they get worked to death and are constantly hiring because of the turnover.
GIP from an infra fund perspective, NEP for the Midwest perspective, Bain Capital Real Estate for the REPE perspective. Echo HIG, Apollo and all spin-outs from those generally.
Curious what you've heard about Bain Capital Real Estate? Have heard sweaty hours but good pay and culture.
I've heard Bain Cap hours aren't bad relative to other MF. Concur about good culture, haven’t heard either way about pay
Levine Leichtmann. Horrendous culture.
Can you elaborate?
Can confirm. They tried to improve it but the shitty culture still lingers.
Have heard this from a former associate I met there in 2021.
So basically every PE fund I have heard of is mentioned here lol. Anywhere that has decent WLB?
Most "well-known" MM shops are pretty much all sweaty too. End up getting away with hiring kids who go MM for a better lifestyle but it's still pretty dog shit plus you get paid less lol
Any MM/UMM funds that are outliers lol - pay well and/or have good culture?
Check latest associate comp threads. Many firms with sub 5B funds paying same / more than MFs. Would bet lifestyle at these firms better on avg. as well.
Quantum Energy Partners in Houston is a total sweatshop…80 hours a week on average
The famous Quantanomo Bay baby.
At this point, one should consider to ask, which are the good funds at an umm level? Is Insight Partners the only viable choice?
None.
If you didn’t return capital to your LPs in one of the best exit environments ever (2018-2021), then you are a shitty LP and probably won’t get reupped.
any insight on MM infra funds? arclight, denham, 3i, etc.?
The first two you listed have horrible returns. 3i has been trying to launch a proper infra practice for years
Interesting thanks, didn't realise the returns were so bad for those guys - is it a MM infra thing? Any infra funds that stand out besides the usual suspects (GIP, stonepeak, brookfield etc.)?
any insights into BX NYC REPE?
Thoughts on euro MFs like EQT and CVC?
CVC depends on team.
EQT - depends on fund, growth or buyout or infra?
Thanks - can you elaborate further? Which teams at CVC are good / bad?
And which strategies at EQT are good / bad?
Peak Rock can be bad for a tier II city but pay is decent if individually negotiated (and you can get around the culture issue if you position yourself well and are on the right team).
Recruiter a few years ago quoted me 90k + 90k or something like that with these guys...immediately told her no thanks
Anything on tech funds like Apax Digital/ Hg etc? Both US and Europe?
Heard terrible things about Audax and Apollo
Anyone have any insight on Permira and Thoma Bravo?
Permira has one of the best cultures from what i've witnessed (London office), dk about NY or Menlo, probably still the same though
Lmao permira extremely sweaty both SF and NYC
A bit late but went for a coffee chat with a permira vet who said his first year at the firm he developed chest pain and temporarily physically paralyzed himself from the stress on a live deal.
What about Warburg? Anyone know if Warburg Tech is good in particular?
Have heard it’s very sweaty
Warburg actually has great culture. Tech and Business Services are two of the top teams but both are pretty sweaty due (sourcing responsibilities and high deal volume, respectively). Overall good perks and day to day culture though across the board
Sweaty but good returns
What are other groups (industrials, HC, FIG) like culture-wise?
Insanely sweaty. Avoid.
@ this thread -- so, uh, every PE firm? lmao
exactly what I was thinking lol
Corsair. Stereotypical evil PE manager with bad culture and horrible people at the top. Especially the infra team, that's a sinking ship. Failed a few rounds of fundraising for deals...
Confirming this as well
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