Canadian vs USA vs International unis
For context, I am a senior in highschool from Malaysia and do not have US or Canadian citizenship. I'm not certain on being able to get a H-1B in the USA after graduation, whereas the process for a Canadian work visa/PR is much easier. I would ideally want to end up working in an EB/MBB in NYC but have no qualms about Toronto, LDN, SG or Tokyo.
I just received an offer from UWO Ivey, which I will most likely accept. I'm also holding offers from Queens Commerce and UofT Scarborough (Management+International Business co-op) for Canadian unis.
Right now, I’ve been admitted to IU Kelley and got rejected by NYU Stern. I’m still waiting on all the Ivies, Fordham and Northwestern. I will probably get rejected from all of them since I applied for financial aid and don’t have any sort of legacy/connections.
Other colleges I have offers from are Bocconi (Italy) and Keio (Japan) (full ride scholarship for both). Not sure if attending those would be career suicide in the Anglosphere?
I am so lost in where I should go because I’m will be a first-gen college student; my family came out of relative poverty a few years ago, so none of them have worked in finance/white-collar jobs or studied past highschool.
Is Ivey the best choice here? Is there any tangible difference in recruiting prospects for Ivey vs Queens? Ivey would cost CAD $60,000 less than QC in total. UofT is interesting because of the co-op program + international “prestige”, but it is pretty depressing from what I've heard, and seems more geared towards accounting.
I would consider Bocconi a bit more if you’re happy to work in Europe. Do you speak any other languages fluently/do you think you’ll be able to become fluent in Italian? If so, recruiting for London or Frankfurt should be pretty easy out of it and a full scholarship is difficult to pass up on.
That said, grade deflation is rife and if you wanted to do an MS(c) or MBA in the UK, Canada or US later you’re unlikely to come out with a very good grade at Bocconi, so just something to consider.
Thanks, I speak English and Cantonese Chinese fluently right now but my Mandarin Chinese and Japanese is on an intermediate level. I think I can become fluent in Italian by the time I graduate but grade deflation is something that I worry about. Definitely a lot for me to think about considering the scholarship.
If you were business-level confident in English, Italian, Mandarin/Japanese, and Cantonese coming out of Bocconi you'd likely find it pretty easy to get interviews in London. But yeah, grade deflation is something to consider - there's a few threads on here about how English universities convert the Italian system when applying for MScs.
Was in the same boat and ended up going to Canada due to lower costs. Looking back, I'd have taken offers from US unis (even semi & non-targets) over Ivey & Queens had I known internationals who go to schools outside the US would stand no chance of recruiting for BB/EB in NYC out of undergrad. Even though there is a handful of Ivey/Queens kids going to these firms every year, keep in mind that they are Canadians and they're sponsored on the TN visas (which firms will be much more willing to sponsor than H1-B required for internationals). I know a couple of people from US semi/non-targets who made it to BB/EB last year, so you'll still have slim chances of doing so compared to almost 0 if you're an international at Ivey/Queens.
If you want to recruit for Canada, both Ivey and Queens offer fair chances, and I'd take Queens if money is an issue (but Ivey is by far the best business school here).
Thanks, are the people you know from US semi/non-targets on H-1Bs? Also how has OCR been in your own experience at Ivey/Queens?
Yes - all of my friends are on H1Bs. In terms of OCR at Ivey/Queens, from what I've heard, you'll have much better chances there than at any other business schools in Canada (with the presence of some U.S banks on top of Canadian Big 5 and globals). You can take a look at QUIC and WIC placements to see which firms tend to hire from these schools.
Would your answer be different if you were a US citizen?
I'm a Canadian living in the US, so my son is dual. Because of this, he'd have no issues with a visa, even a TN visa, so would that make Ivey pretty safe bet for him? I'll post more of his specifics elsewhere in this thread.
I can speak on behalf of the Canadian Universities.
Ivey is better than Queens. Both of them are miles better than UTSC. UTSG Rotman is what most people think of when they think undergrad business at UofT, and even that's a tier two program. UTSC is third rate at best. There is zero prestige in going to UTSG lol.
Is the case method what makes Ivey better than Queens? Also, what makes Rotman so much worse than them?
Ivey is better than Queens because its just got a better reputation and more alumni in finance - that's it. Not so much about the academics being superior at one university or another - if anything, the kids coming out of these two universities learn less than from kids at other universities in Canada regarded as T2. They just have a better reputation.
As for your second question, I don't know - same reason we consider UNC worse than Wharton. It just is. The only people who think Rotman is a top program are the people who based their decisions off university rankings which no one takes seriously because they're laughably and outrageously wrong for Canada
And if Rotman is highly overrated, UTSC is downright horrible. Go for Ivey buddy.
Can't speak to US or European schools but I'm an Ivey student so I can offer some perspective on it. Ivey as an educational institution during covid has been terrible (seems like consensus opinion among most students) but once you start it'll probably be in person and a lot better. Classes are mediocre (case studies are all bullshit) but the people are great. But you're not picking which school will teach you best - I'd pick the school that recruits the best. In my (biased) opinion, Ivey is better than Queens for US recruiting although only marginally. Personally, I was able to recruit for a great NYC spot for full time although this was not a walk in the park. US pipelines at Ivey have historically included Evercore (5-7+), Moelis (1-2), GS (west coast, 1-2), P72 (1-2), Houlihan Lokey (west coast, 1-2), Silver Lake (0-1), Apollo (0-1), Ares (0-1), KKR (0-1), Blackstone (1-2), and a few more. Check the Western Investment Club site for placements (although there are more than those shown). One thing I'd also note is it seems like you're asian and in that case I'd definitely pick Ivey. Diversity is objectively better at Ivey if that is something you care about (there was a scandal at Queens a year or two ago about the treatment of minorities).
Did you find it hard to maintain the 80%+ average? (No idea how difficult it is to get an A/A+ in Canada). I'm going into the honors econ for the first 2 years but might switch over to BMOS considering that AEO is conditional. Also is the Western Investment Club selective? i.e. behavioral/technical interviews. Thanks so much!
Maintaining an 80% average in econ or bmos is not hard. Just be mindful of your course selection. This may sound harsh, but if you can't maintain an 80 average in these programs then top US spots are also probably out of reach.
Do not take honours econ if you go to western/Ivey. I have gone through that program and seen countless people loose Ivey offers. Also it is easier to recruit with a 95% average in normal econ or bmos than an 80% in honours. Recruiters will not what your first two years were in if they were vaguely finance based. They will also not care about the differences between honours and non honours econ. 1st year, they are both the same. Second year, non honours is very easy with only multiple choice questions. Honours is typically 1-3 long questions. If you take honours, you will have to take math courses that have much lower average than most (I have had Professors that was happy that the class average was 40%). Additionally honours econ marks are much harder and more time consuming.
This is a pretty accurate assessment and offers some great insight. As an educational institution, Ivey is exceptionally mediocre, but as a recruiting pipeline, it's strong. Glad to hear US firms are still recruiting - I know when I was around, it wasn't clear if that would continue since visas were so much harder to get.
Like OP, my son also got AEO and is considering switching over from his pre-HBA choice (BMOS). As an Ivey student, what's your opinion of the best use of the first 2 years? Is BMOS worthwhile, or something like Data Science (which may be harder to keep 80% in)?
Do Data Science. It will help in getting early internships. BMOS is not as rigorous and you don't really learn much. 80% shouldn't be a problem if you put in the work. It's not MIT.
I'd disagree with the above. It depends on what your son wants to do specifically, but if he just wants to pursue the traditional banking/finance route, stick to BMOS/econ. Not only do your early internships NOT matter in third-year recruiting, but also you can find plenty of Toronto/Canadian finance sweatshops (think search funds, small PE funds, small HFs) that will hire just about any first/second year to do bitch work. If your son is really smart then why not, but IMO why take the risk. Just do the easiest route.
Can I PM you? Highly considering Ivey myself but also considered about the competitiveness in NYC / Toronto.
I think that you have to enter Ivey.
I think purely on recruiting, the results out of both Queens and Ivey are similar (I went to Queen's for full disclosure). Ivey places a bit better in the U.S. overall if that is your ultimate goal, but both produce excellent results. Would agree with the post above the UTSC is not worth your time, huge difference in quality there vs. Ivey or Queens and is an extremely fringe target, I know a few guys who went there and have ended up in banking / PE in Canada, but after a lot of bouncing around and lateraling.
In terms of schools / learning style I don't really have any strong feelings about the style of teaching, I didn't do the case style so can't really speak to it. Queen's had a pretty balanced learning style that I enjoyed and offered a good mix of everything. Also, consider the 4-year vs. 2-year program in the business school is definitely worth thinking about. I believe Ivey still does AEO (could be old?) meaning you are not 100% sure you are in from day 1, personally that was a turn off for me and was one of the factors that drove me going to Queen's, difference in cost was the other driver.
Think someone already flagged one of the most important points above, that as an international without Canadian/U.S. citizenship you are really going to struggle to recruit in the U.S. because of visa concerns. I know this was the case for my class from Queen's and that almost all of the guys/girls who went to GS or any other U.S. shop were Canadians. I'm no expert on the U.S. visa system but at least anecdotally I've observed that it is a lot easier to get into / stay in the U.S. if you are already at a U.S. school.
Hope that helps.
SB for my fellow Commie
Thanks for the insight. Ivey still does AEO which is kind of annoying. I'm still leaning towards it though, because it would cost less than Queen's. Was Queens academically rigorous? I think US after undergrad is quite doomed for me because of the visa situation so I will probably stay in Canada first.
Didn't see it's the other way around now that Ivey has become cheaper than Queen's, was the other way around when I was deciding, but also tuition inflated at a comical rate over my 4 years so in the end my total cost might have been higher at Queen's. Academically rigorous is a pretty broad statement, I would say most of the coursework was engaging enough and there are some exceptional professors, but as long as you work decently hard and you aren't dumb it shouldn't be overly challenging to get good marks.
Canada is still a pretty good place to live and if the U.S. is still your ultimate goal I have seen a number of peers lateral over there in finance and tech after starting their careers in Canada (both Calgary and Toronto based).
>wake up, drink milk from bags
>look out window to find car, cant see car because covered in 2 meters of snow
>goes outside to shovel snow and find car, gets yelled at by neighbours for not wearing masks
>trucks pass by, honking
>wait nevermind its just the fucking geese
>looks on news, tired of vaccine mandate, decides to donate to gofundme for poor truckers protesting
>bank calls, says theyre seizing your account for government use
>wtf.jpg
>decides to file tax return
>accountant says you owe 50k because your marginal tax rate is 54%
>fuck.png
>walks to grab some coffee and donuts at tim hortons
>trips and breaks spine on slippery sidewalk
>nurse says waiting list for surgery is 6 years because free healthcare
>dies
Yea sadly tuition in Canada is going up by ~6-7% a year for international students so it's getting out of hand.
Take IU Kelley if u can. Probably has the best US placement within the US out of all your options (high semi-target whereas all the other international schools you mentioned are essentially non-targets in the US) but more importantly you get 3 years of post-graduation OPT (think of it as a temporary work visa). If cost is an issue, then go with Western Ivey (best undergrad business school in Canada) but note that you'll be limited to Canadian recruiting since you don't have Canadian citizenship/TN-1 status potential which means you won't be able to work in the US.
Yes, Ivey places lights out in NYC finance, but you'll find that virtually everyone who does is Canadian, and that's because Canadians are eligible for TN visas which aren't hard to get approved.
If you're not Canadian and want to work in the US doing IB or MBB you pretty much can only do that by attending a US school. H1-B is difficult to get these days as each cycle is usually 3x oversubscribed. The only other way (in general) to get work authorization is through OPT, which is 1-3 years of work authorization (depending on if your degree is STEM or not) attached to your student visa. I and my other international friends working in finance after graduation will all be on STEM OPT (3 years) while we ballot for H1-B each year. Without having that no employer would be willing to hand you an offer for a 20-30% chance you'll be able to actually get the H1-B and be able to work.
If your two options are IU Kelley vs Western, I think the decision hinges on if you'd be satisfied with a better shot at landing a job in Toronto as opposed to a weaker (but still decent all things considered) shot at landing a spot in the US. There aren't many IU or Ivey alum in Singapore so I don't think there's sufficient data to make a conclusion as to which is better for opportunities there as your best shot in finance outside of Canada/US.
Hey, I'm in the same position as you. Having gotten AEO status from Ivey, I feel like I'll be attending Western this September. A few months back, while selecting unis to apply to, my goal was also to end up working in nyc, but after a lot of research (reading and posting frequently on sites like wso), I realised that recruiting for the US from Canadian schools is going to be impossible in the current political/visa climate for people who are not American or Canadian citizens. People on here have pretty much covered it, but what I have decided to do, and what u can potentially consider doing also, is attending Ivey and then working for 2/3 years after uni ends to make yourself eligible for the Canadian citizenship. With that secured, then you can possibly lateral into a US IB/MBB position. At that point, even if u don't get a green card or a long-term work visa in the US, you would still have your Canadian citizenship to fall back upon, and can potentially return to work in Canada if that doesn't work out, which is also prestigious and laudable in its own right. I feel like, with that strategy, you're not opening yourself up to immense risk whilst creating a fighting chance for yourself to land a position in the US after getting that Canadian citizenship. Let me know what you decide, and if you'll attend Ivey!
Hi, congrats on your AEO status! I am very much thinking the same thing as you (Canadian citizenship route) since the H-1B situation is looking pretty grim. I'll just wait for the Ivy League schools before my final decision but I will most likely attend Ivey. Do you mind if I PM you?
Yeah, sure go ahead!!
If I'm not mistaken, you only need to physically reside in Canada for 2 years (of the past 5) to apply for citizenship. I know this because I'd like to get my US wife citizenship, but she can't spend that much time in Canada to apply. I do NOT know if being in Canada as a student (and maybe a student visa) somehow disqualifies you from counting your time in school towards that 2-year target.
I think per immigration rules they count half the time spent in Canada for Permanent Residence Requierments
.
.
PM'ed
If you think you can get fluent enough in Japanese by the time you graduate, Keio doesn't seem like a bad choice. Being a bilingual speaker (Eng/JP) in Tokyo + Keio being a target school would easily get you first rounds in IB/MBB, I imagine it might be the easiest to land compared to other cities you have listed
Like others have said, your top choice would be going directly to a US school, but if tuition ever becomes a problem, go with Keio. You can do MBB in Tokyo for a few years and then get paid to do MBA in the US. However if your goal is to obtain citizenship then consider Ivey
Thanks, for Keio, the main drawbacks I have right now are that I'm not too sure what the recruiting process is like in Japan, and there isn't that much information out there for breaking into IB/MBB in Japan. (Also kind of worried about MBA placement and career advancement coming out of Japan). It sounds like a great place to be as an undergrad though. Have you worked in Tokyo before by any chance?
Congrats on Ivey and Kelley - both are great programs and best of luck with the rest! I'm a Canadian who ended up staying in the States for school (grew up here and am a dual-citizen), so I can't offer too much help aside from saying that Big Ten schools are a great time, but please feel free to reach out if you happen to be interested in trading commodities at all and I'd be more than happy to help you out with recruiting and hopefully securing a visa out here in any way that I can.
Thanks so much! I'll have to do more reading on commodities but thanks for reaching out!
I'm lucky to have found this post. Like you, my son got in to Ivey and UTSC co-op. He's waiting on Rotman, Queens, and McGill.
I would've expected Rotman/McGill would have the best combination of reputation in US and a big-city environment to spend the 4 years in (I myself went to UWO and found London, ON to be a bit of a drag), but I put a lot of value in WSO opinions over Reddit, so this is very informative. My questions are:
1. As a dual-citizen who won't need any visa, is Ivey comparable to going to a US semi-target? Besides the Canadian schools, he only applied to FL schools, so there may not even BE a semi-target here.
2. How is McGill Desaultels compared with Ivey/QC (if he gets in)?
3. UWO is a 2+2 (2 years of something before the 2 years of HBA), so what's the best thing to take in those first 2 years if you want to go into Finance?
4. Same question, but if you want to go into Consulting?
5. Related to #3, is BMOS (management and organizational studies) decent? Would Data Science be better?
Also this: https://atila.ca/blog/tomiwa/the-best-canadian-universities-for-consult…;
Keep in mind that Ivey and QC have a smaller number of students though
GREAT source - thanks for the tip. I think I'm going to be buying the full book too.
So interestingly UofT is tops on both the consulting and MBB consulting rankings, but Melonpan: you seem pretty set with Ivey. Especially coming from international, I'm surprised you (like me) wouldn't gravitate to Toronto as just being a more interesting place to spend 4 years, in combination with these rankings. Is your interest in Ivey because it's higher in non-consulting areas that you're more interested in (like IB?). Similarly McGill seems to do pretty well, and I think in earlier posts you had an interest in McGill (also in a more interesting city environment for an international student).
Also, to your (important) note on class size, I wrote a post with links but I guess they were disallowed. Anyway what I found was that Rotman had a class of 2900/4 or around 725 (may be lower if 10% don't make it to 2nd year, so maybe closer to 700?); Ivey's 'year in review' page 1 says HBA1 has 620 students (which I think would mean HBA2 must also have around 620 making that the graduating class size), and I found no official source for Queens, but several unofficial ones put their number at about 500.
Those numbers are way closer than I would have guessed. I thought Rotman would be at least 50% larger than Western.
if i was in your position I would go for Ivey,
1) its the best business school in canada so the chances of finding a good job in finance or consulting is high
2) ivey actually sends people to the US every year now keep in mind not being Canadian and the visa relationships between both countries have gotten worse so that will decrease your chances but u can still try if u really want to work in the US
3) canada is one of the most friendly countries for international students getting the PR is wayy easier than other countries like US or UK
4) since ivey is good and most probably u will find a decent job u can always transfer to the US later on in your career
Now for bocconi its a great university however if u dont go to london you would be shooting yourself in the foot since dealflow, salaries , exit opps are better in toronto than in milan best of luck!
Blanditiis officia et officiis ullam. Aliquam inventore alias nobis ut officia alias. Voluptas veritatis aperiam deserunt nihil. Repellendus deleniti repellendus ipsa consequatur. Qui maiores non ut quia sequi architecto.
Minima non repellendus amet placeat aliquam voluptas labore. Quia et fugiat quas est a perferendis omnis pariatur. Expedita voluptas quia autem quo consequatur. Rerum est aut et corporis voluptatem qui ea.
Nulla dignissimos sequi corporis quo. Veniam temporibus adipisci recusandae voluptatem magni eveniet.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Quidem dolorum et vel. Error rerum consequatur assumenda et. Maxime libero exercitationem ipsam. Aliquid aut enim non doloremque optio.
Sit et nam doloribus aut veniam. In culpa consequatur eveniet in. Error excepturi cum reiciendis deleniti. Non debitis sunt odit.
Ut dolorem ut vel est. Vitae vitae ea voluptas quaerat sit exercitationem. Est quia et consequatur ut assumenda reiciendis.