Long-time lurker here. I’ve gained a lot from this community and wanted to give back while work is slow. My fund invests across the capital stack in both public and private credit. I have ~5 years of buy-side experience and am happy to share general career advice.
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Thanks for doing this, what’s your background?
I started as a long-only HY/LL performing credit analyst covering specific sectors. My day to day was largely focused on new issue with some exposure to secondary opportunities (primarily names trading in the mid-90s). I like the work but the learning curve eventually flattened after a few years and I found the work increasingly repetitive.
I wanted a more flexible mandate that allowed me to take risk across the capital structure. Now I’m spending more time evaluating secondary opportunities often in the 70s or below, which I find more interesting than underwriting new issues at a 99 OID.
Currently in LevFin, is it smarter to do RX or HY An if I want to go down the same route?
In the exact same spot - could I PM you?
do you think there is too much false precision in special sits / distressed as a whole? based on what I have heard, sometimes seniors are very rigid and they strongly believe the model's 13.3% and if that's 12.7% (random numbers), they perceive the deal differently... whereas in PE people are less bothered whether it's 22% or 23%. this can in turn lead to excessive modelling over small stuff?
We target mid-teens-plus returns, and we’re pretty disciplined about that. We model ranges and sensitivities, but at the end of the day, if a deal can’t realistically get us there, we just won’t do it. That’s why seniors can seem rigid about a 15.0% vs a 14.5% IRR. It’s not about false precision as much as staying true to what we’ve promised our LPs
The dynamic is also different between public and private markets. In publics, returns are mostly a function of where things are trading. In privates, we have more levers and can structure deals to help ensure we hit our return targets through things like call pro or minimum IRR/MOIC
How has your mandate adapted (if at all) with the evolution of LM? Also curious if you came from an RX IB seat before. Thanks
See my comment above about my background.
The biggest way our mandate has evolved is by leaning more into private deals. Public distressed has become a much smaller and tougher market to make money in. A TL trading in the 50s isn’t always a mispricing. Sometimes it’s there because the business is just broken and no amount of capital is going to fix it. For example, look at Platinum's United Site Services, which filed for bankruptcy this morning
When the public markets aren’t offering great opportunities, our flexibility lets us shift toward private transactions that can actually meet our return targets. We get a solid amount of inbound on the private side, which is where we’ve been spending more of our time lately.
Thank you so much! How can I break into SS/Distressed buyside after an mba as an international? Doing rx at an elite boutique (I’m aware they hire mba assos) for 2-3 years first and the seeking to exit would work?
Or is it basically not possible? Context: LatAm international, 5yoe, FIG IB at a BB and now m&a at a single FO with 12bn portfolio
Thanks!
Sorry I’m not an international, so I'm probably not the right person to answer this. That said, I have seen international post-MBA at distressed funds, so it’s definitely possible. I’d suggest reaching out to internationals in your MBA network to get their take
Wish I could be more helpful but good luck
Hey, I have always been interested in Distressed Debt / Special Sits, but I have been locked into a sector that I am not really passionate about (Energy + Power and Utilities IB). Not RX and not Levfin which I assume are the typical feeders
If I wanted to move into a buyside role that invests across the capital stack how would you move strategically. Should I try to work within my given situation and learn on the side, lateral or something else all together?
You should be able to get direct looks for buy-side roles. Funds that invest across the capital structure typically run a generalist model for juniors. With your background, you’d likely continue to see energy and power deals, but you’d also gain exposure to a broader set of sectors. Energy is one of the more complex sectors to cover, so that experience can actually be a positive when recruiting. DL also tends to operate on a generalist model, so that could be a good fit as well, but HY/LL strategies are organized by sector so would avoid those
If you’re not getting traction directly, lateraling into RX or LevFin can also work. It broadens your industry exposure and reduces the risk of being pigeonholed solely into energy and power
Do you know any special sits funds that invest in public equities as well as debt, i.e. truly invest across the capital structure?
It seems most funds specialise in public distressed and on the private side do pref equity and PIK loans. I hear my boss tell me how he invested in Southern European sovereign debt etc. back in the day and just doesn‘t feel like that‘s something my fund would ever do today.
Will let OP respond, but just sharing my thoughts: Elliott and to various degrees its spinouts (Palliser, Irenic, Coryell) are a few of the top funds that are truly still agnostic across the capital structure. It’s hard to do but these places continue to make money across the spectrum.
I’m not the most knowledgeable on this, but my sense is that it’s not very common for funds to invest meaningfully in both debt and equity. One of the main reasons is that LPs typically allocate capital with a specific purpose in mind: equity for growth/upside, credit for yield/capital preservation. A blended approach can be harder for LPs to slot into their portfolios and many prefer to control their equity vs credit exposure themselves
At my fund, we do own some equity but it’s a very small part of the portfolio and not a core part of our strategy
Every fund is different but there are credit funds out there with massive equity positions. Redwood in SATS, Arini as well. Tons of distressed guys still own SFR FP stock post the RX on view biz will be sold. Many other levered equities owned in size “consensus credit HF longs”.
Typical trade is buy the levered stock on view equity market not pricing in the probability of option extension upon a successful LME.
On your point on LP mandates, I find it farcical for whichever distressed funds that’s bit bidding on Saks second out bonds at 6 cents to be in any way related to “yield” or “downside protection”. This is a defaulted bond in grace and is a deep out of the money option at best (I’d argue complete lottery ticket). Point being, clearly guys have different mandates.
Appreciate you doing this! If you don't mind sharing, curious if you could shed more color on what the recruiting process looked like (if you used a headhunter and if there was a case what it looked like)?
Separately, curious to hear if you think the influx of CLO and other index-style investing within the HY/LL universe has created any opportunities given their concentration limits, ratings sensitivity, etc. or not really? Take your point on seeing more in privates today, just wondering how much of that opportunity set is temporary or here to stay even in a more normalized environment. Thanks!
I used a mix of headhunters and direct online applications. A lot of the roles came through headhunters since many positions aren’t posted publicly. Most processes involved a take-home case followed by an in-person debrief. You’d usually be asked to make a recommendation with a model and an investment memo for a specific company's TL/bonds. Some firms gave just the weekend, while others gave a week or more
On the second question, we do pay close attention to CLO technicals. For example, CLOs are often forced sellers when an issuer gets downgraded to CCC so we’ll sometimes wait for that dislocation and step in to buy cheaper paper. Similarly, when there’s LME risk, smaller CLO holders often sell because they can’t really influence outcomes or get favorable economics from being on SteerCo
Curious about comp compared to more vanilla DL seats or PE if you don’t mind sharing
Also curious if MBA is required for upward progression in the space
I won’t comment on comp specifically, but it’s generally in line with/higher than vanilla DL and PE roles. Compensation is ultimately driven by a combination of fees and AUM. Odyssey publishes a comp report broken out by special situations, DL, and PE, which is probably a good place to start if you’re trying to benchmark
My fund doesn’t require an MBA though I’m not sure how common that is across the industry. Personally, I don’t think an MBA would add much value for me as an investor
Based on some of your guidance provided, it seems its better to focus on gaining buy-side experience over staying at the sell-side. Zooming-in on this; how would you look at opportunities at start-up special sits funds that are c. $1bn AuM with a handful of employees (assume 3-4 partners / PMs and 1-2 juniors, which would be me).
If the fund does not work out, do you think these are still great seats given it will allow for buy-side experience? I am trying to get a sense if moving to such smaller fund will still give me looks from larger funds / credit HFs if I decide I want to move to a more established fund down the road (BB LevFin sell-side experience). Assume one factor may also be the specific PMs of the small fund (e.g. reputation vis-à-vis how well the credit "training/discipline" must have been for the more junior person on the team)?
Start-up funds can definitely be tricky. There’s always the risk they don’t work out, but I’d focus on a few things:
If I had to choose between this vs IB, and my goal was to move to a larger fund eventually, I’d pick the buy-side role. Nothing really beats actual investing experience. I think of it like riding a bike: you can read about it all you want, but balance only comes from getting on it. If the fund doesn’t work out, people will understand and no one will blame the junior.
Happy to give more specific advice if you can share a bit more about the fund and the PM
Thanks a lot! Happy to share some more details via PM but note this is EMEA (not US) - if you could send me a PM I can share the details (I can't currently send you a PM since you are anonymous).
Hi thanks for the AMA
What's your view on Distressed / Special Sits in the US vs in EMEA?
Which geography do you feel suits D / SS more?
I focus on the US, so I’m not as familiar with EMEA. My understanding is that the US corporate debt market is ~5x the size of EMEA’s (though don’t quote me on that). There tends to be more opportunities in the US given the larger market
I’m 1 year out of school working in HY/LL at a $20bn fund covering a couple sectors that are a big focus for us and that I enjoy. Like at your previous job, I have rarely looked at anything trading below 90 unless we bought it higher and it subsequently traded down. I want to move to a role where I’m looking at more opportunistic stuff, but at this point I don’t have an in depth enough understanding of covenants / LME to do so. (1) Any recommendations for getting up to speed there? (2) Also, would funds like yours give me credit for having the CFA, or do you find it irrelevant (currently prepping for L3 largely due to sunk cost fallacy after 1 & 2)? (3) Any thoughts on someone like me potentially moving to Rx for a couple years after a couple years here in order to get better looks at a distressed fund (I.e. would this be looked down upon)?
I’ve been in your shoes, so here’s how I’d think about your questions:
On 1), you’re still relatively junior, and no one expects you to be an expert on covenants / LMEs. That said, it’s worth spending some time getting comfortable with the basics (things like RP capacity, additional debt incurrence, and drop-down capacity) just so you have a solid foundation. Following ongoing LMEs on Octus can also be really helpful, both to see how companies can screw over lenders and to have real examples you can talk through in interviews
I’d spend the bulk of your time building your fundamental research skills: what makes a good vs bad business, valuation, and waterfall / returns scenario analysis. I don’t know how your current shop operates, but at my prior shop we didn’t spend much time on valuation or scenario work because it often doesn’t matter for a TL or bond trading near par. In distressed situations, though, it absolutely does
The best way to learn is to pick a name trading at distressed levels (say mid-teens YTM or higher), build a model, write an investment memo, and make a recommendation. A lot of my case studies involved public names that were actively trading at distressed levels, so this is great practice. You might even get lucky and be asked about a name you’ve already done work on
On 2), I don’t think there’s much downside to the CFA, but there’s also not much upside for hedge funds. My fund doesn’t care about the CFA, and I think that’s true for most hedge funds. Your time is probably better spent on the things I mentioned in 1)
On 3), I don’t think you need to go to Rx and you can recruit directly from your current seat. You’re already on the buy-side, and going sell-side and then back to the buy-side would seem a bit odd to me. If you want to invest, why leave an investing role in the first place?
I really appreciate your response. Hope you get that $bn!
currently a rx analyst- what is your best advice on navigating recruiting and finding a seat like yours? I feel like part of the fight is 1. alot of the hedge funds / firms that have a strategy like yours want to hire someone more experienced vs. training you and 2. the ones that are willing to hire junior bankers feel like they are hiring for a program (where majority of people leave 2/3 years). Feels like finding a place with this strategy that isn't a 2 and out program interested in developing their own junior talent is hard. I could be mistaken though.
Seperately, what funds would you categorize having similar investment style?
Unfortunately, you’re not wrong. There just aren’t that many seats, and openings tend to be pretty rare. This isn’t like PE, where recruiting is structured around an on-cycle process. Hiring here is much more opportunistic
My advice would be to start building relationships with headhunters and get on their radar. It can take some time for the right role to open up, but you should get looks coming from an rx background. The good news is that you’re still junior, and firms are generally more willing to hire someone at the junior level than bring in a more senior hire
A few shops that come to mind are Ares, Apollo, Redwood, Knighthead, and Diameter. I’m not sure whether the same teams cover both public and private investments though
Which firms do you know of that have the same team cover public and private?
How do you view starting out at platforms like Morgan Stanley Tactical Value or Goldman Sachs Hybrid Capital straight out of undergrad if the long-term goal is to move into a special sits HF? Are these seats generally seen as a step below groups like BX TacOpps or Ares ASOF from the perspective of distressed / special sits HFs, or are they viewed as comparable training grounds?
I’m not very familiar with MSTV or GS Hybrid, but I took a quick look at their websites and they do seem like interesting opportunities. It appears they focus on private transactions across the capital structure, so you’d likely get solid special situations experience
That said, I probably wouldn’t put them in the same tier as BX TacOpps or ASOF, given differences in scale and historical performance. ASOF is widely regarded as one of the top special situations funds, and while BX TacOpps has gone through a bit of an identity shift over time, it’s still a strong brand with $34bn AUM
More broadly, asset management platforms within banks aren’t always viewed in the same “tier” as pure buy-side shops, largely because banks have multiple businesses competing for attention. I’ve also heard anecdotally that some buy-side firms push back on banks participating in the same deals, which can limit banks to less attractive or less proprietary opportunities
I think the pushback is mostly done on the PE side where GS/MS have to focus mostly on mm deals to not piss off large cap sponsors who are their ib clients. For ss/credit there's less of this pushback. Interviewed with GSAM privates earlier this year right after they were shaking up capital solutions/private credit and they were telling me they are able to act on business brought in by their ib division
Am curious to hear your perspective on quality of underwriting in private vs public credit. My impression is that in private credit, you get so much more access to information and you can really drill deeply into different levers that can drive your returns/model out with more granularity vs. public where less information is reported/available and you are stuck with a higher level view of how to underwrite rev/cost/margins into the future
It’s true that in private transactions you often get access to a lot more information, but in practice it’s not always that helpful. In a typical VDR with hundreds of files, maybe 10% actually matter for underwriting or truly move the needle
Whether it’s a private or public deal, mgmt and bankers tend to be overly optimistic, so we rarely take what they say at face value. Instead, we focus on doing our own work (things like expert calls, industry and peer analysis, and other independent research) to form our own view
We’re never going to have perfect information, but we run different scenarios and analyses to get comfortable with the risk/reward and decide whether an opportunity makes sense
thanks for this! understood on the point of more information but also more noise on the private side. how does different scenarios/analysis usually look like for publics? esp when there isn't much breakdown into different drivers (price/volume) or cost structure
Not to take over Q&A but I totally disagree with view that more company info = better underwriting.
Most private credit firms have horrible mark to market returns (see how any of the BDCs trading), most of their book isn’t being refi’d into HY or loan market despite there being so much pik and near term maturities (27/8) and coupons way way above mkt indices.
This biz you always have to think “why does this opportunity exist?” “Why is blackrock pgim fidelity t Rowe not financing this in public HY mkt for way cheaper” “why are so many people selling if my model says ltv at face is 60%?”. In private credit context the question should be why are they even going to private mkt when it’s 200-300bps more expensive. Even in cap solutions context, public solutions / bank solutions are possible (see Bausch Health or Warner Bros).
Usually it’s bc company is a complete turd, can’t get rating, issuance size too small, 6x lev lending guideline (though bessent is canning that thankfully), or rarely rarely you have “better sponsor relationship” (I’m skeptical at any private credit guy who tells me that. Are you rlly telling me your relationship is better than GS coverage/lev fin bankers who can get you an early look at a hot asset? To jpm banker who will get their pwm platform to pump your continuiston fund with hnw?)
I see! Thanks so much for this. I was under the impression that private markets see more detailed modelling/underwriting because of the more granular/more line items that they can forecast. But from what you are saying, this doesn't necessarily translate into a higher quality understanding of the business and risks are often more hidden?
I’m entering the summer working at a distressed and special sits hedge fund as a junior, do you have any advice for me before I get started? Thank you
Congrats on the internship. I wouldn’t stress too much about preparing in advance, no one will expect you to come in knowing much
Once you start, the best advice is to be proactive and show genuine interest. You can do that by asking thoughtful questions, doing high-quality work (and making sure you don’t repeat the same mistakes), and having a positive attitude. You’ll be hit with a lot of new information early on, so write things down and keep good notes so nothing gets lost. Try to absorb as much as you can, think of it as learning by osmosis
Good luck this summer, you’ll do great
.
Thanks for doing this. I have a very similar background (HY/LL industry analyst out of undergrad) and I’m about ~3 years out of school. Very similar gripes. I am actively recruiting for generalist, cross capital structure roles right now.
Two questions:
1. Did the thesis you had when leaving your initial seat play out? I have this notion that moving towards a distressed / flexible mandate will be so interesting and life changing, but sometimes people say credit is credit.
2. How are you thinking about your career and next steps from here? My current seat has a few former distressed / hedge fund investors that returned to performing credit due to lifestyle, compensation, and career stability reasons. I probably would never return to this seat, but curious if your thinking has evolved on this topic over the years.
1) Yes, the difference really is night and day. Previously, I was covering so many names that new issue and earnings alone took up 90%+ of my time. My schedule was unpredictable, and I rarely had the time to read or do any real deep-dive work. While I had good breadth, I didn’t have much depth. Frankly I knew a lot of names only an inch deep. I also found the work pretty unfulfilling and often questioned why I was spending so much time writing a memo on a name trading at 99 that was almost certainly going to be fine
Now, I don’t do any new issue work, so my schedule is far more predictable. I’m typically staffed on a handful of active secondary or private deals, which gives me the time and space to really focus and dig into the businesses. I don’t have a formal coverage universe anymore, but I’ll dial into a few earnings calls each quarter for portcos and relevant comps
Most importantly, I find the work much more interesting, and it feels like it actually matters when a name is trading in the 70s or lower. The hours are also a bit better overall surprisingly
2) I see myself staying in my current seat. I like the strategy, the team, and genuinely enjoy the work. I could never go back to my previous role. I found it painfully boring, and honestly, I don’t think most people truly enjoy it, even at the senior level. My sense is that they tolerate it for the paycheck. Curious to hear your take on whether people at your fund feel the same way?
Good luck with recruiting, hope you land at a great shop
Awesome. Agreed, primary issuance sucks. Thank you!
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Thanks for taking the time, this thread and your insights have been super helpful. You mentioned that starting in a buyside seat is the best way to prepare for a seat like yours. I'll be joining a DL team at a megafund as an Analyst but longer-term I’m most interested in a seat like yours.
I've heard the transition from vanilla DL to SS and hairier credits can be frowned upon or a tough sell to head hunters and firms. Given you made a slightly similar pivot, do you have 1) any advice on how to frame this pivot, and what I can be doing in my current seat to best prep myself? Are there any super transferrable reps I should deliberately seek?
And 2) Have you seen people successfully move internally from DL to an opportunistic team at the same platform, and if so, what tends to make that feasible?
Also in industry. it is not frowned upon at all. Your average buy side DL analyst is a better hire than an RX analyst despite what the industry norms are.
Actually disagree with this - sitting in a distressed/special sits seat, I can tell you I think it’s a push on average
I’ve written about this point at length in another post so won’t rehash it all here, but not all experience is created equal
Disagree as well. At top tier firm and we are hiring someone this new yr. We’d never hire someone from direct lending or CLO. Investment process at those places is all papering, DD for no reason when your IC main mandate and incentive structure is to deploy capital, not to carefully assess deals and say no.
Now someone out of RX with low experience isn’t great but top RX plus megafund PE is workable bankground for us (or top RX and time spent in equities HF).
Respect that your firm may have that mandate but that’s a very reductive way to think about DL investing.
Sounds like your workable background is the marquee pedigree resume. Congrats on working at a top firm man and shitting on performing credit seats. I see it a lot around on this forum (that is tailored towards younger grads) and parroting that narrative is not helpful for anyone. Seems to come from a very negative place and rife with a superiority complex. So everyone in that industry should just think of themselves as a mindless robot that provides no real value? But you as the elite distressed debt hedge fund guy are the pinnacle? All private investing shops can be reductively framed in the way you have portrayed above.
Lots of folks in performing credit (CLO and DL) will make fun of themselves and their job, I wouldn’t let their views fully shape how you view the asset class. Maybe the guy at the top shop should do more proprietary diligence to formulate their own view.
Hope you make loads of money tho!
Just so it’s clear, I’m not in either of the seats compared here….
Hi, thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of these questions. I’m a rising junior and will be interning this summer in event driven credit/equities across the capital structure at a megafund (primarily stressed/distressed with some more esoteric situations as well). In that context, I was wondering if you could explain in more detail about the modeling work that you do as part of stressed/distressed public credit: ie how much time is spent on recap models/scenario analysis/detailed interest builds/3 statement builds/operating builds/LRF's and if you have any resources that might be helpful in developing those skills prior to the summer. Happy to PM if you would prefer, thanks again.
Bump on modelling question
where have you seen similar credit hf people exit to? understand its the exit already but am just curious what options are out there. most of the people ik have stayed or moved to peers, have you seen non finance exits?
I mean for most people, the hedge fund seat is like their third exit (sell side, buy side seat 1 and maybe a second and then a hedge fund).
I guess some could do equity hedge fund if their firm has the mandate to also do equity plays (outlined somewhere in the thread above).
For 90% of people, hedge fund credit seat is the ultimate exit. Beyond that, you’re moving based on preference of investing style (equity vs credit), firm dynamics (comp, culture etc) or you just want better wlb (move to performing seat in liquid or DL)
figured, thank you for the response. i started in HY/LL out of undergrad and am now at a similar fund to yours. Its hard for me to envision what else I could do in the future when I am already at the ultimate exit, but my enthusiasm for public markets is fading a bit. Not sure where to go from here other than just going to another fund or credit strategy which I don't want to do. Have you seen any HF guys move to pension/endowment roles or anything other than just going to another fund/strategy?
I am currently in a FIG IB seat and am looking to get to a distressed HF. How is FIG IB viewed in distressed HF world? I am getting a lot of exposure to BDC coverage which could be a helpful talking point / learning experience for interviews. What do you think about moving internally to a distressed desk analyst role or looking to move into LevFin internally. Is moving to buyside next a lot better than these roles?
Thanks for doing this. I am 23 and work at a MMHF (one of mlp, citadel, p72) as a risk quant. I work on credit market risk for our PMs with some exposure to cross asset. Day to day usually involves flagging high concentration exposures, tracking risk metrics like mainly VaR, Stress, Vol, CS01, JTD, running regression analysis for bonds spreads, etc.I currently am based in india and want to go in a risk taking seat as a quant or analyst, any guidance to what should be roadmap would be helpful
TY
What do you think is the best way to distressed / special sits? Would starting out at direct lending / credit desk analyst / liquid credit be a good choice? I am currently in L/S credit /HY credit at a multistrat, but looking for new opportunities given that 2 of the teams i was in got cut this year. Not sure what the best opportunity to look for is right now. 1.5 years experience so quite junior, went to HF straight out of undergrad. Not sure if I should look into going into IB or a credit desk at a bank/ DL a given recent unfortunate circumstances.
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