More classics from resumes/cover letters

We're digging through resumes for summer analysts again. Thought everyone might enjoy or benefit from a few of the real gems (all emphasis mine):

"Objective: To obtain an internship in the field of financial services to utilize my VAST analytical and quantitative skills."

The kid's a sophomore with a 3.43 GPA; how vast can he be? This reminds me of an ex-boyfriend of mine who described himself in public once as "massively endowed" when he actually had around six and a half inches. Nothing to laugh at, of course, but nothing you want to stand up and shout about either.

"I have been trading in various markets since my senior year in high school to seek a maximum return.... my returns for the past three consecutive years are 12%, 23%, and 28%."

Great way to show me that you approach financial markets like a hotshot stockbroker, taking on as much risk as possible in up years with no capacity to control for sigma. I would probably cringe to see the beta of your portfolio. When blood runs in the streets up here, that blood belongs to folks like you. (By the way, we're bankers. If you can't tell, we are not impressed by portfolio managers.)

One guy extended his resume from one to two pages... and the only thing on the second page was a summer job as a retail clerk at Hollister & Co. Clothing. Clearly he thinks it's a big enough part of his total package to justify a whole second page. Heh. Folks, when I read a resume I want to picture someone who can impress me and my clients, not the pimply kid who goes into the back to find me another pair of jeans. Sure, most of us have worked retail at some time or another, but it's not something you put on your resume unless you're applying for more retail. You are selling what you are telling, and if you tell me you work in retail, you are trying to sell me a retail clerk, which I don't want or need.

Here's another:

"Experience: Cheeburger Cheeburger, Princeton Jct. NJ. Assistant manager, server, bartender, summer 2006-present. Served food to more than four tables at a time, handled take out orders, phone orders, and managed ice cream bar."

Great. I'm sure that ice cream bar experience was very challenging. Now get me a scoop of vanilla, fudge, extra nuts.

"I have maintained a 3.39 GPA while actively participating in a fraternity and several competitive intramural sports."

Great. Maybe you should have partied less, stayed off the courts, and studied more. I would have been far more impressed had you said, "I got kicked out of my fraternity but maintained my 3.95 GPA." If it's 3 AM and I find a critical mistake in your comp sheet when I have a 9 AM deliverable, your fraternity will not save you from my wrath, my friend. Frat experience is no excuse for a 3.39.

Comments (189)

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 2:34pm

One other thing that's really not doing it for me is the proliferation of camp counselor roles. Yes, I realize that as a sophomore you may not have investment banking or even finance experience yet. But every inch of space on your one-page resume is valuable, and I need to hear about your amazing experience teaching subsistence farming improvements in Mongolia or working with AIDS kids in Ghana or volunteering in emergency room triage in the city's most underfunded hospital, not about how you took care of twelve nine-year-olds all summer when you were eighteen. This is a competitive process. If you are lame, do try not to show it. You still have a chance... as long as you don't show it.

And here's a guy with no GPA. If there's no GPA, we assume it's bad and you go into the No pile. We do not ask you. This guy got a perfect score on his SAT2 math and writing (but not verbal), and now he's got literally no chance because he didn't include his GPA. Sad.

Finally, I've got about a zillion Tri-Delts all in one block. It's like all the Tri-Delts got together and spammed us. They're all from the same city, they all have GPAs between 3.0 and 3.5, and most of their "experience" consists of things like "Sorority Continuing Education Chair" and "Organized Tri-Delt Fashion Show for Charity". It's like their worlds don't extend beyond their sorority. These girls wouldn't make it here if we hired them... which we clearly won't, because their academics suck.

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Jan 18, 2007 - 9:07pm

Before I write this, I think it's important to note that I have neither the intention nor the interest to enter the investment banking world. My opinion is very much from an outsider marketing/sales perspective. I simply saw this particular stream of posts because it was listed as a friend's name on MSN Messenger.

When I first read this stream, like many on here, I thought that Miss Ind's first couple of posts were somewhat pompous and arrogant but the fact of the matter is is that she's just telling it the way it is. Like it or not, entrance into the top tier corporations (and schools), regardless of industry, is based on one (or a combination) of 3 things:

1) Finishing in the top 10% (if not 5%) of your class at a top 10 school,

2) A successful track record in applicable professional employment, or

3) Knowing the right people (hate to get political and I know I’m going to receive backlash from this statement but George Bush didn't exactly get the job because the man was a genius. He got it because he knew the right people and he knew how to talk to the public)

The comments referring to Miss Ind as an “ugly bitch” (among others) are both unfounded and unnecessary for, for all we know, she could be a gorgeous swimsuit model. Think about it, if she’s able to say 6.5” isn’t all that much, in terms of “size”, you have to have been with the best and attractive enough (or confident enough) to obtain it. All Miss Ind is trying to do is really assist those that read or post on this particular stream. Some, with a defeatist attitude, may think that, based on what she wrote, under no circumstances do they stand a chance in the investment banking field and, as a result, decide to take personal attacks at the messenger who is simply giving them the reality. To those that believe this, based on stereotypes of the position alone, you’re probably not cut out for it. The reality is that her comments were not intended to create an impossibility but rather an opportunity. Some of the secrets to cracking the clique of investment banking have been made evident to the public thanks to postings like the ones Miss Ind has created. Applicants have a choice of either getting discouraged and not applying at all thanks to the aforementioned information or they can choose to make something of themselves and create a lineup of successful ventures and academic accolades that would put both the applicant and his/her resume in high demand by anyone in the industry. Unfortunately, unless you’ve graduated in the top 10% of the class at a top 10 school, there will be no gifts in the professional world. Through networking and patience, obtaining a job in investment banking is possible but it’ll come down to how badly you want it, what you’re willing to sacrifice to acquire it, and how hard you’re willing to work to get it.

This is now getting a bit too “prophetic/idealistic” for my liking so I’ll just end it here. Good job on the posts Miss Ind and you can be sure that, though I do have a business degree, I probably won’t be applying for a position at an investment bank.

-Damian

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 2:51pm

And on the other hand, so you guys can see the rest of the story, here's what we like to see. Bear in mind that these are in their junior years:

-- 3.9 GPA, semester in Barcelona, summer at Merrill Lynch regional wealth management.

-- 3.88 GPA, 4.0 major GPA, fraternity treasurer, fluent in Hindi, internship in boutique consulting.

-- Valedictorian of high school class, working since age fourteen, 3.91 GPA, internship in regional UBS office, experience in Thomson ONE suite.

-- International and national chess champion since age thirteen, 3.73 GPA, must play chess intensely for 12 hours a day during competitions, full scholarship, law office clerk experience, founder of a small dermatological company with several patents.

-- 3.85 GPA, 4.0 major, 1500 SAT, tutored corporate finance 320, consulting internship.

-- 3.7 GPA, summer at Thomson in New York while running 90mi/week in prep for cross country season, internship at Smith Barney regional office.

-- 3.7 GPA, studying for Series 7, internship at regional Merrill Lynch office and Raymond James office, fluent in six major languages.

-- Top 5% at Trinity College in Dublin, certified airport controller (super-high intensity work), boutique bank experience, fluent in three major languages.

-- 4.0, ING regional experience, 1500 SAT.

-- 3.7, double major in business and econ, summer at Merrill, winter in the White House, two summers in the Senate, founded a major schoolwide investment organization that is still going strong, VP of finance for student council managing a multimillion budget.

-- 4.0, full scholarship, TA for Calc I and II, fluent in three major languages.

This is our current "Maybe" list. You can actually see the inverse relationship between our requirements for work and extracurriculars and our requirements for GPA. If you have more of one, you can get away with having less of another.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 3:00pm

Not at all. I'm actually about to go downstairs and meet the guy and I hope I like him, because I think he'd be great.

But to be perfectly honest, though I just made fun of the kid who worked at Cheeburger Cheeburger, I would bet that working in fast food, being polite to pissed-off people who are in a hurry, being treated like crap and underpaid, having to perform up to code with inferior products, insufficient oversight, and slacker teammates is a much better preparation for an analyst's life than fetching coffee at the White House. But the White House guy's going to get the job and the Cheeburger Cheeburger guy isn't. And that's life.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 3:12pm

which reminds me, i know a bunch of people (including myself) who interned with the private client or wealth management division of BBs as sophomores cuz it's pretty impossible to get banking internships at that point... but the thing is with those internships you usually don't do anything too significant, in fact a lot of it is busywork. i'd assume interviewers know this, so is it ok to just be perfectly honest and downplay the experience during interviews?

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:23pm

Hey, Sshiah, that's exactly what I (and almost everybody else) did for our sophomore years. Of course we know that it's mostly busywork, but it would be going too far to downplay it. Everyone else plays it up, and playing it up is expected. If I was talking to someone formally (in an interview, not as a friend) who admitted that his internship was bullshit, I would wonder if it was even MORE bullshit than mine was, which would be pretty sad.

We expect salesmanship; we expect experiences to be puffed up. If they aren't, you may win the prize for honesty and straight shooting, but that (unfortunately) won't help you compete.

Take a look at this:

XXX Securities, Summer Intern:

-- Got coffee four times daily.
-- Made the advisors' daily appointments with utmost precision.
-- Filed customer data in the right folders with 99.5% accuracy.
-- Cleaned out filing cabinet.
-- Always knew where the Dow was trading.

Or this:

XXX Securities, Summer Intern:

-- Revolutionized data retrieval system, resulting in 30% more efficient retrieval process.
-- Studied for Series 7 exam (for exam date next semester).
-- Prepared all client presentations using PowerPoint while negotiating difficult Compliance deadlines.
-- Modeled client portfolios in Excel, including Black-Scholes modeling for efficient valuation of derivative securities within each portfolio.
-- Extensive contact with clients and senior management in both meetings and informal lunch and dinner settings.

Same job. Two very different marketing approaches.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 3:43pm

to assume that the guy who put his portfolio returns in his cover letter (and handily beat the markets in all three years, assuming he's talking about '04-'06) must be an idiot. On what evidence? That he trades a PA? I haven't met anyone in finance who doesn't.

 
Best Response
Jan 11, 2007 - 4:21pm

Great, make fun of the the kid with the crappy job. I only had crappy jobs, too, when I was applying. You know why? Because I am a first generation who couldn't use daddy's connections to get an internship as a sophomore. Because those are the only people who get internships as sophomores in ibanking. 90% of the people who intern as sophomores are connected.

Last year when I interned at a BB, there was a kid who was an intern as a sophomore, because his daddy was a big shot at MS and knew people. Here is his typical day:
9:30 Come to work, eat breakfast, read the WSJ till around 1:00, because no one gave me any work
1:00 Go eat lunch til about 2:00 because no one gave me any work
2:00 Get coffee, make some copies
5:30 Go home
And you know what? That kid is going to put "summer internship at a BB" and wow you. You are probably reading his resume and being impressed right now. Next year when I am reading resumes, I would definitely choose the Burger guy over the worthless connected rich kid. And he will do a much better job.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 4:39pm

Yeah, Miss Ind, you're making a mistake with that attitude. I worked last year in a relatively laid back financial position (was the summer after my second year) and during highschool I worked fastfood, and can guarantee you that the fastfood job required much more of the skills (the ones you mentioned- face paced, stress management, getting yelled at) for BB IB than the laid back financial internship. It may not be intellecutally rigourous, but the candidates school/SATs/grades etc. should testify to that.

The fact that you even admit it's more relevant than the guy who got coffee for people int he white house makes me wonder why you'd still not take that person seriously.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 4:48pm

I think you have to realize how many resumes her bank is looking through. They want the whole package and don't have time to think about whether the burger joint was a better experience than the financial services internship freshmen year. The fact is, companies in general like to see big name internships/work experience. And from what I understand, banks especially like reputable names.

Plus, how many resumes do you see with the White House and Senate on it? Quite unique. Everybody has worked at a restaurant/fast-food/catering

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 4:53pm

i'd be much more interested in a couple good equity ideas discussed in a cover letter or interview than an unverifiable pa record

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:05pm

Re: being a cold-hearted bitch and having the wrong attitude, my team sifts through hundreds of resumes per session and has less than 20 seconds per resume to decide yes or no. Thus, all of us (including myself) have to divorce what we really believe from what the bank wants. It does us no good to bring in guys who worked primarily in burger joints, because the bankers who interview them will make fun of them and they won't make it through the first round. Beyond that, the senior bankers will come to us asking why we turned away all the candidates with "good, useful bulge bracket experience" and gave them a bunch of "fast food losers" instead. The system is massive and self-propagating. For me, a single powerless analyst, to try to undermine it or fight it would be like trying to hand out my paycheck to fight world hunger. My effort would be swallowed up without a single effect except my own termination of employment.

My point is this. We've all worked retail, and we've all worked food service. Me? My mom and aunt have been on and off welfare their whole lives. Do I let these bankers know that? Hell no. Do I put my mall retail experience on my resume? Hell no. Do I flash my South Decatur colors and walk in ghetto-fabulous in a pink tracksuit with my name in silver sequins across my ass? Hell no. You have to sell what bankers want to buy. It's all in the marketing. I'm trying to help those who need to learn how to do it.

This is the reality you face as an applicant. This is what really goes on behind closed doors. Understanding it is more than half the battle.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 6:17pm

Mis Ind:
Re: being a cold-hearted bitch and having the wrong attitude, my team sifts through hundreds of resumes per session and has less than 20 seconds per resume to decide yes or no. Thus, all of us (including myself) have to divorce what we really believe from what the bank wants. It does us no good to bring in guys who worked primarily in burger joints, because the bankers who interview them will make fun of them and they won't make it through the first round. Beyond that, the senior bankers will come to us asking why we turned away all the candidates with "good, useful bulge bracket experience" and gave them a bunch of "fast food losers" instead. The system is massive and self-propagating. For me, a single powerless analyst, to try to undermine it or fight it would be like trying to hand out my paycheck to fight world hunger. My effort would be swallowed up without a single effect except my own termination of employment.

The fact that you first started a thread to openly make fun of rejected applicants (and, yeah, you really only had 20 seconds to scan their resume before completely forgetting about them), and then turned around and said "It's unfair but I can't do anything about it", just shows how much of an insecure bitch and a hopeless tool you are.

 
Apr 11, 2007 - 6:02pm

As a reply to Miss Ind's comment: "Re: being a cold-hearted bitch and having the wrong attitude, my team sifts through hundreds of resumes per session and has less than 20 seconds per resume to decide yes or no."

It is kind of sad that you claim you have only 20 seconds per resume and complain and moan about how hard your life is. Because after that, you seem to have all the time in the world to come to a forum and actually copy all these "pathetic" applications. As someone with banking experience, I would HATE to work for or with you. Your attitude is repulsive and I wonder how is it that you still have a job that requires such great people skills. I guess pretending goes a long way.

 
Apr 11, 2007 - 7:15pm

I don't understand why people are piling on Mis Ind. Do they think that she specifically rejected their resume as the description matches one that she mocks? I mean, making fun of her doesn't do anything and she's simply telling it as it is. Banks don't owe applicants anything and if they only spend 20 seconds, well that's how they choose to conduct business. Wall Street is a tremendously competitive world (I know that is incredibly cliche but some people don't seem to understand it) and if you guys are getting mad about someone being callous and uncaring about 50,000 strangers appying for jobs, well you need to get real.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:16pm

though maybe your bank (or maybe just the people who look at resumes at your bank) are way harsh. At least at my school, the alums are usually the ones who check out the resume drops from my school, and let's just say if you happened to be on a certain sports team/same fraternity or sorority/same extracurrics. as the alums reading your resumes, you have a good shot of making it into the 'interview' pile. I only say this in regard to my observation of
kids in my class who definitely would never had a chance if they did the same things and went to another school.

Just recalling my junior year pre-interview meeting with GS: a room full of econ majors who all had 3.9s and 4.0s and huge tools who 'started companies' and whatever. But when it came down to the superday, none made it through to the final rounds.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:31pm

Yeah, that's the thing. The guys with the 3.9s who started companies STILL don't make it through final rounds (only one in 300-400 resumes will do that), but at least they're good enough to bring up here. As an initial sifter, my job is to get the right warm bodies in the door and let the senior bankers sort them out. We have checklists to go down, and we don't have the time or energy to wonder if this guy's tennis IM or that guy's chess club is going to help them here. Because, honestly, they're almost certainly not going to work here anyway. I don't get to look at Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Wharton resumes (in fact, I only look at non-target resumes), so every single person I look at is a super-long shot to begin with. At least at this bank, you gotta be a superstar of superstars if you're from a non-target. The international chess prodigy with his own patents and company (and the guy with the White House/double Senate/multimillion dollar budget) may have a chance of actually making it through the zillion rounds to the offer if they've got great personalities and interview well. The rest are just padding. Harsh, but necessary. We have to give hundreds of no's for every yes.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 5:26pm

You are the most pretentious bitch I’ve ever read in my life. You bash people on this board probably to compensate for your self-abased demeanor. You know you’re fat and you know you are an ugly bitch. Sweet, so now let’s post resumes on a board to show how stupid everybody else is.
Why would you piss on somebody because they worked at a fast food joint?
Why would you piss on somebody because they have a 3.4?
You suck. And the people that you work for probably think the same. Gosh, I hope I never run into you.
Wait, how will I know it’s you?
I will look for the ugliest bitch in the room.

Mis Ind:
We're digging through resumes for summer analysts again. Thought everyone might enjoy or benefit from a few of the real gems (all emphasis mine):

"Objective: To obtain an internship in the field of financial services to utilize my VAST analytical and quantitative skills."

The kid's a sophomore with a 3.43 GPA; how vast can he be? This reminds me of an ex-boyfriend of mine who described himself in public once as "massively endowed" when he actually had around six and a half inches. Nothing to laugh at, of course, but nothing you want to stand up and shout about either.

"I have been trading in various markets since my senior year in high school to seek a maximum return.... my returns for the past three consecutive years are 12%, 23%, and 28%."

Great way to show me that you approach financial markets like a hotshot stockbroker, taking on as much risk as possible in up years with no capacity to control for sigma. I would probably cringe to see the beta of your portfolio. When blood runs in the streets up here, that blood belongs to folks like you. (By the way, we're bankers. If you can't tell, we are not impressed by portfolio managers.)

One guy extended his resume from one to two pages... and the only thing on the second page was a summer job as a retail clerk at Hollister & Co. Clothing. Clearly he thinks it's a big enough part of his total package to justify a whole second page. Heh. Folks, when I read a resume I want to picture someone who can impress me and my clients, not the pimply kid who goes into the back to find me another pair of jeans. Sure, most of us have worked retail at some time or another, but it's not something you put on your resume unless you're applying for more retail. You are selling what you are telling, and if you tell me you work in retail, you are trying to sell me a retail clerk, which I don't want or need.

Here's another:

"Experience: Cheeburger Cheeburger, Princeton Jct. NJ. Assistant manager, server, bartender, summer 2006-present. Served food to more than four tables at a time, handled take out orders, phone orders, and managed ice cream bar."

Great. I'm sure that ice cream bar experience was very challenging. Now get me a scoop of vanilla, fudge, extra nuts.

"I have maintained a 3.39 GPA while actively participating in a fraternity and several competitive intramural sports."

Great. Maybe you should have partied less, stayed off the courts, and studied more. I would have been far more impressed had you said, "I got kicked out of my fraternity but maintained my 3.95 GPA." If it's 3 AM and I find a critical mistake in your comp sheet when I have a 9 AM deliverable, your fraternity will not save you from my wrath, my friend. Frat experience is no excuse for a 3.39.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:29pm

Mis Ind, the fact that you don't give interviews to people has nothing to do with why you act like a bitch. Its because you write posts laughing and poking fun at these kids on some message board. They dont know what works and what doesn't they are just trying to get a job. You snide comments and bullshit marterdom only highlight the darker side of banking; dealing with people with inflated egos for 14 hours a day, when said individuals have no self awareness of how others perceve them.

PS: For the record my a good friend of mine landed GS with server at a burger joint on his resume.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:38pm

ke18sb:
Mis Ind, the fact that you don't give interviews to people has nothing to do with why you act like a bitch. Its because you write posts laughing and poking fun at these kids on some message board. They dont know what works and what doesn't they are just trying to get a job. You snide comments and bullshit marterdom only highlight the darker side of banking; dealing with people with inflated egos for 14 hours a day, when said individuals have no self awareness of how others perceve them.

PS: For the record my a good friend of mine landed GS with server at a burger joint on his resume.

Exactly. They are not even that funny. Funny would be something like Aleksey Vayner - fake, embellished stuff. 3.5 GPA in a frat - not funny. Some people don't have great resumes, but try to do the best they can.

P.S. I also got an internship with a BB with food serving on my resume. I m glad someone like you wasn;t reading my resumes

 
Apr 7, 2010 - 8:17am

ke18sb:
Mis Ind, the fact that you don't give interviews to people has nothing to do with why you act like a bitch. Its because you write posts laughing and poking fun at these kids on some message board. They dont know what works and what doesn't they are just trying to get a job. You snide comments and bullshit marterdom only highlight the darker side of banking; dealing with people with inflated egos for 14 hours a day, when said individuals have no self awareness of how others perceve them.

PS: For the record my a good friend of mine landed GS with server at a burger joint on his resume.

Here here,

What's the point in this OP? It's not constructive, it's just nasty.

Miss Ind - go get laid instead of belittling all the defenceless starters to make yourself feel big and important.

A ton of kids use this website to get an impression of the world we work in - and you'd do well to represent it better.

You write like an ugly chick, and your still the same lonely bitch i'm sure you were in high school.

High five your face.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:39pm

"You bash people on this board probably to compensate for your self-abased demeanor."

Sorry, man. Didn't realize your resume was in here. As far as I know, the only folks I dissed were anonymous applicants, not anybody on this board. Furthermore, I'm attempting to recreate the atmosphere of the resume-sifting meetings I've attended. I thought it was pretty harsh when I first started, but then I saw the sheer scale of applicants and the immense burden of sifting through them and realized what was going on. Not pretty, but effective.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:44pm

Are you sorting through the resumes that were submitted online? If so, did a recruiter filter them first, or do you have to look through every online resume? I didn't think they actually gave the online ones to an analyst to look through. Or are you reading resumes sent through referrals within the bank? Or is both?

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:47pm

the way it works in general is ppl recruit on different school teams. so you see the resumes of the applicants from a given school, then sort, then interview them. i generally do the interviewing, not the resume sorting, but i've sorted before.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:49pm

Actually, we let the schools do the pre-filtering. If we only invite non-target career centers to submit a certain number of resumes, they will definitely make sure we get their best and brightest. So we'll get 50-100 resumes from each school, and out of a few thousand total resumes we'll give three to five summer offers.

I'm not sure if anyone actually looks at resumes that are submitted via this company's website.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:50pm

By the way, our summer program is one of the biggest on the street, but it's overwhelmingly populated with kids from target schools. Non-targets actually have a better chance when applying in the fall for full-time. Then we'll do one offer (eventually, after super days) out of a hundred to two hundred resumes.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 5:54pm

Miss Ind is actually doing all the prospects on the site a huge favor by letting everyone know the realities of the elimination process. It can be a mean world out there, and most of her comments were actually pretty tame compared to some of what's actually said.
Her advice on the right way to market mundane tasks hit the bullseye, and believe me, there are ways to make any mediocre duties sound better than they really are.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 6:41pm

papershuffler:
Miss Ind is actually doing all the prospects on the site a huge favor by letting everyone know the realities of the elimination process. It can be a mean world out there, and most of her comments were actually pretty tame compared to some of what's actually said.
Her advice on the right way to market mundane tasks hit the bullseye, and believe me, there are ways to make any mediocre duties sound better than they really are.

I agree.

Miss Ind, thank you for the informative topic.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 6:05pm

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that people here are so sensitive about their resumes. I know I'm usually the huggy-touchy one around here, and outside the office I am. But this is a brutal, nasty industry and I didn't imagine anyone would be surprised by the reality of the recruitment meetings.

Think about it. We are already busy, working all night on our actual deals, under constant pressure, and then we have to sit in a room for hours eating nasty cold pizza and sifting through hundreds of resumes from people who clearly didn't take the time to understand this industry or perfect their resumes. They waste the time of a dozen investment-banking professionals -- these kids who misspell the name of our bank, who've worked at their summer camp every year since they were sixteen, who declare themselves to be practically the masters of the universe at age twenty. It's not an easy job, and we need to let off steam.

Don't get me wrong. There are people that make me want to pick up the phone and call them and get their story because they're just so fucking cool. There's a kid who got his start shining shoes in Moscow after the fall of the Soviet Union and who brought his family over and worked every day of his life ever since, in warehouses and investment banks and everything in between. You better bet I want to take him to lunch and give him a job. But the Connecticut kid who "interned" at his mama's country club's summer camp for four years and addressed his cover letter "To whom it may concern:"? No. I'm sorry, he's just funny. I would rather bring in somebody who put "May-August 2002: Ghetto hustla supreme" on his resume. At least that shows gumption and a sense of humor.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 6:06pm

i generally agree with misind. recruiting can be fun but it can also be a huge pain and a massive time sink.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 6:25pm

Mean Reversion, my resume posts are practically a fixture here by now. I know strong words always kick up controversy, particularly in such an anonymous and quick-access environment, but this is the industry that readers (and presumably you) are hoping to become a part of. In IB you will be roundly made fun of from every quarter. They're going to diss your shoes, your school, your sport, and what you eat for lunch... and that's if you're lucky enough to cut through the hundreds of other competitors to get an offer. It's going to be good-natured if you make it, because those will be your new brethren, but the dissing will never stop. The ones who don't make it will never even be important enough to be dissed to their face... but the dissing can and does go on behind closed doors.

There's no crying in banking. Period. You shrug off the bullshit and keep rolling. You think our snap judgements have anything to do with these people's values as human beings? Come on. You need to comprehend the system if you're going to work the system.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 6:28pm

Slypko, if you've done a search for my posts you probably know that I don't confirm or deny. If you're really connected and know tons of analysts on Wall Street it can be figured out (how many other people in my exact situation are there?), but what would be the point? I'm just a single faceless monkey in a very big jungle, no more or less useful than any other monkey. Just think of me as the girl in the next cube. For at least two people out there, I actually am.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 6:39pm

Mis Ind might sound like a bitch, but she's only reflecting the reality of the analyst recruiting process. I'm an associate, and at my bank we do most of the initial resume sifting and have the same issue with time.

The truth is that there is a limited supply of positions and a huge demand. Frankly, being an analyst is not rocket science. In my opinion the greatest assets are a near OCD attention to detail and stamina. Anyone of above average intelligence can handle the rest. The fact that so many of you fall for the siren's song of quick money only perpetuates the quasi-abusive working conditions in the industry. With 100 resumes for every position, and 10 that could probably do the job well, why give a damn about hours or lifestyle?

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 6:47pm

Mis Ind, admire your courage. Not much is let out of the crack in our door behind the brass plate.

Two yrs ago we got over 90,000 applicants for about 350 FT hires firm wide/world wide.

And it's not just applicants for banking where this process goes on--any firm, any UG school, any Grad school, any B-school. This is reality, folks.

Glad you have the balls to tell the bloody story straight. Pity those who don't have the courage to heed your words.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 6:55pm

How about... 3.5 GPA, double specialization in Finance and Management Info Systems, semester abroad in Angers, France, semi-fluent in French. Low GPA because I like to party hard since I'm in a fraternity and I go to a shit unheard of public university.

This reminds me of an ex-boyfriend of mine who described himself in public once as "massively endowed" when he actually had around six and a half inches. Nothing to laugh at, of course, but nothing you want to stand up and shout about either.

6 and a half inches is a whole inch above the average I believe. I guess you like the big dongs...

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 7:02pm

i think this thread provides decent insight for the prospective bankers. for the protestors, it's true that bankers are harsh but it's stupid to make personal attacks or get pissed off at the system. it's just the way the process goes and if you find this to be too mean then you might need to find another industry. the bottom line is that something on your resume has to jump out - it can either be, holy shit this guy is one of the top ranked squash players in the country OR holy shit this guy can't spell ambition. one becomes known as "Squash guy" going into interviews and the other gets his resume tossed out. is it fair? no but it's also not realistic to interview 1,000's of people.

clearly, Mis Ind isn't an "insecure bitch and hopeless tool". the best thing that prospective bankers could do is soak up this insight, polish their resumes, and send it out to as many people/alumni as possible to get feedback. at some point in your adult life you will also have to filter resumes and you'll see the big picture.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 7:06pm

...great Miss Ind, I am sure that those kids would be happy you tossed out their resumes if they knew that getting the job would have meant working with people like you. Also, I love a student who trades in college, i am a trader now and did the same thing when i was in college, and his returns are very solid...nobody who has ever traded on the buyside would laugh at that record if he can verify it. I would venture to say that he knows more about markets from 3 years of trading then you know from your 4 years in college+your whole banking analyst stint at CS. I also find it hard to believe that you ever had a boyfriend with a 6.5 cock and let him go, female bankers really need to take whatever they can get even if it is just slightly above the mean....

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 7:13pm

Agreed. Thanks Mis Ind for a blunt, but truthful post.

If you think bankers aren't laughing or poking fun at your resumes if they have mistakes or if it's a ridiculous shot in the dark, you've got another thing coming. Shouldn't the unnecessarily harsh comments on this board (even about other bankers in lessr-tier banks) be some sort of indication to you that you will always be judged in banking?

Of course nepotism isn't fair... but those are the breaks. Just work harder to make the connections necessary to hopefully land those internships and be proud that you got in without daddy's help if you can.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 7:30pm

"nobody who has ever traded on the buyside would laugh at that record if he can verify it. I would venture to say that he knows more about markets from 3 years of trading then you know from your 4 years in college+your whole banking analyst stint"

Hey, man, I'm an investment banker, not a trader. I don't know the markets. I drive the markets. I don't need to know where the market is trading because the market reacts to what we do, not the other way around. The WSJ doesn't even get around to reporting my work until weeks after I'm done with it. You buy (or choose not to buy) the crappy IPOs I sell on roadshows, but by the time you get the chance to place your order, I can barely remember what the damn company was called in the first place.

If you really are a trader, then you know that there's no love lost between traders and bankers. You think we're useless pedigreed overpaid leeches, and we think you're undereducated boors who just happen to have the right reptilian reflexes to make pennies on the dollar on stocks that move because we did a deal. The kid's big sin is not that he quoted big returns. The kid's big sin is that he tried to apply to investment banking by quoting his trader qualifications.

Just so you know I'm not coming at this from a completely uneducated standpoint, I worked on a family of funds and separate account management platform for years during college. My returns were similarly outrageous, primarily because I took enormous risks in the pharmaceuticals sector at just the right time, among other bets. In fact, the only difference between this guy and me is that A) I was trading with hundreds of thousands (still not so great) for a family of funds, and he was trading with thousands for his personal account, and B) I didn't say a damn thing about it in my cover letter for investment banking.

Again, my problem with this kid isn't who he is or what he does... it's how he packages himself.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 8:10pm

Mis Ind:

Hey, man, I'm an investment banker, not a trader. I don't know the markets. I drive the markets. I don't need to know where the market is trading because the market reacts to what we do, not the other way around. The WSJ doesn't even get around to reporting my work until weeks after I'm done with it. You buy (or choose not to buy) the crappy IPOs I sell on roadshows, but by the time you get the chance to place your order, I can barely remember what the damn company was called in the first place.

u go on roadshows and you are an analyst? huh?

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 7:53pm

...I never said I dont like bankers, I just think they are generally kind of harmless nerds/losers. Also i don't trade stocks and don't make "pennies on the dollar". Unless you work for the Fed, the Bundesbank, the BOJ, or the Bank of England I dont buy your IPO's. I am in no way reptilian, in fact i am positively and solely human. And I dont think you are overpaid because i doubt you make much money. I also doubt the whole story about trading money for a family of funds (whatever that is) while in college. Honestly i can't imagine anybody who runs money giving it to a college kid to "take massive risks" with. But whatever...I am just saying you reveal alot of your character by making fun of college kids who are trying to differentiate themselves. And i would put my workplace up against yours when it comes to the toughness of employees/sh&t you have to take any day of the week. For eg that 6.5 inch cock comment would be pretty much a standard topic of discussion on our desk.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:10pm

"I also doubt the whole story about trading money for a family of funds (whatever that is) while in college."

Oh, I'll admit it's vaguely unlikely, but quite true all the same. It was a bunch of guys who hadn't made it on Wall Street who'd gone out to a minor US city and started a separate account management platform to serve all the clueless financial advisors who work for boutique firms that don't have their own portfolio advisory group. They had some success there because it was an underserved market at the time, so they decided to create a family of mutual funds (though I hesitate to use that term because the funds behaved more like hedge funds while legally being mutual funds). There was all of ten million in three mutual funds; that's how small they were. I was a young hotshot with a 4.0 and bulge bracket experience, the head honcho was head over heels in love with me, and I told him I'd make him money if he handed me a couple hundred grand to play with. He was the kind of loserly guy who bought a nightclub for $2m just because he wanted someplace that would set up a velvet rope around him and they don't do that kind of thing in that city. The current guys he had running his funds were just as untried as I was (hell, one of them was the guy who eventually became my fiance, and trust me when I tell you he was utterly clueless AND he was in charge of the energy sector, which he knew nothing about), and he thought I was a supergenius with mental powers beyond that of mortal man. So he cut me off a little chunk of one of his funds and let me play. I made him some money. That was that.

I'm also a world martial arts champion (that's the official title, though my circuit wasn't even close to incorporating the whole world), the youngest-ever recipient of a grant from the Academy of American Poets, and just turned down an offer for an overseas nonofficial cover position (the most difficult and demanding) with the CIA. The world's a funny place, huh? I'm really very accustomed to people thinking I'm an outrageous liar, but I've never had anyone disbelieve something THAT pedestrian. Be my guest, darling.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:29pm

Mis Ind:

I'm also a world martial arts champion (that's the official title, though my circuit wasn't even close to incorporating the whole world), the youngest-ever recipient of a grant from the Academy of American Poets, and just turned down an offer for an overseas nonofficial cover position (the most difficult and demanding) with the CIA. The world's a funny place, huh? I'm really very accustomed to people thinking I'm an outrageous liar, but I've never had anyone disbelieve something THAT pedestrian. Be my guest, darling.

Your fiance must be a very lucky guy!

Guys, I can confirm what she wrote (on the resume side, not her accomplishments). I worked for a BB, albeit not in NYC (think SF) and we sifted through thousands of resumes. Simply put, make sure you're packaged correctly and that you don't lean towards trading or another profession. There are simple guidelines you should adhere to in order to maximize your chances.

While you may view her comments as "casutic" you can learn something. My only spin on her comments is that if you don't make the "resume-cut" there are other ways to "get in." I was a spring hire and went through "non-traditional" methods.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:17pm

Of course. I don't know why you find this odd. I personally have not gone on a roadshow yet, but when I said that, I was using "I" as a metaphor for the investment banking analyst in general as opposed to a trader. There's usually at least one analyst in my group on a roadshow pretty much all the time. It's standard in my group for analysts to go on roadshows.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:27pm

...to be honest i dont believe any of your above post, although that dosent mean its not true. My burning question is this: if you are the type of girl who guys fall head over heels in love with regularly and are smart to boot, then why are u working in banking? Its just such a crappy/no life type of job...every girl i know who fits the picture u are painting is smart and fun enough to realize its horrible. And unlike guys, girls usually are smart enough to just drop out as opposed to "toughing it out" to please parents/friends/whatever. If you are really such a great girl how can you trade 3 years of your life in to stare at a spreadsheet?

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:28pm

Well, if it helps, I can tell you that trustworthy analysts here often do everything that an associate does (except for take home the same bonus). Hell, I've had four or five staffings with just me and an MD, and I'm not even that trusted yet.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 7:45am

corgi95:
LOL at the arrogant attitude. I got to a top school and banking is literally a dime a dozen and definitely not prestigious. The only people that aspire to it are middling students (3.4-3.5) with literally no other options.

I can't agree more. What I'm angry about is how arrogant some attitudes are. I went to THE top university with THE top scholarship in my country, topped the equivalent of SAT in my country and had offers from nearly all the banks. Yet I didn't have experience when I first applied for an internship, and I put random experiences down. Seriously, if anyone chucked my application out, I'll just laugh at you.

And I fully agree with corgi.. the work's definitely not prestigious - eating crappy takeaway food in a crappy environment at 9pm. Crap is the word. I can't believe people tell me they are really excited about formatting a pitchbook at 2 am in the morning.

I accidently saw the salary of a rather senior guy and I just thought to myself: after a decade in banking, he doesn't even make 5% of what my father makes by being self-employed. Yet that's no basis for judging someone. BUT HE IS SO ARROGANT because of how much he earns (and I know this because of these crude comments he has made in the past when drunk). It's like he's been to the other side of the universe and seen it all. Pathetic

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:42pm

"...to be honest i dont believe any of your above post, although that dosent mean its not true. My burning question is this: if you are the type of girl who guys fall head over heels in love with regularly and are smart to boot, then why are u working in banking? Its just such a crappy/no life type of job...every girl i know who fits the picture u are painting is smart and fun enough to realize its horrible. And unlike guys, girls usually are smart enough to just drop out as opposed to "toughing it out" to please parents/friends/whatever. If you are really such a great girl how can you trade 3 years of your life in to stare at a spreadsheet?"

Well, you've put me in a mood for reminiscing. Let me tell you something I don't tell many people.

I grew up very poor. Hungry poor. Criminal poor.

I eventually got into a decent college, though I was 22 when that happened. It took an insane amount of work to get there, and I had already been working since I was twelve... first to stay alive, then to become the world's greatest swordsman (I failed, of course), then to stay alive again, then to get a house when I had no money, then to be a poet, then to get into one college, then to get into a better college. I was fucking tired, folks. A guy with $70 million came along and wanted a paid companion. Yes, this really happens, and this guy's habit was to dip into the pool of eligible girls at this one particular college. I figured, I'm tired of working. I'm young and pretty and make nice conversation. Why not demand a world-class fee and go make rich guys happy for the rest of my (young) life?

Well, gentle readers, I tried. And I was a horrible failure as a paid mistress. I could barely kiss the guy. The fact is that I'm a stupid romantic girl who falls in love with horrendously inappropriate men and then flexes her life around so that it all works out anyway. The courtesan's creed is that it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor one, but I can tell you that it isn't true for me. The most important thing in my life isn't money, as much as I wish it were. The most important thing in my life is this... this absolutely IMPOSSIBLE but wonderful boy who I want to take care of and make a family with. So here I am at work at nearly nine on a Thursday night because money isn't the most important thing.

So maybe I'm not so smart, but I think I'm still an okay girl, maybe even a pretty great girl. I kick ass, I work hard, I look good, I take care of my own, and I take no bullshit from anybody on God's green earth. And that's the way I like it.

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Jan 11, 2007 - 8:51pm

Dude... you think somebody like me could possibly be sane? Ha. Haha. Muahahahahahahaha.

And thank you for the invite, but the firm is buying me dinner tonight. Chicken curry again. Mmm-mmm good.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:59pm

...i dont think i've ever been rejected for chicken curry eaten in front of a keyboard. Well, Ive never believed it was possible to pick up girls over the internet anyway...and i suppose your impending marriage slightly lengthened the odds against me. If anything happens between you and your wonder-boy between now and the finish line you know where to find me!

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 8:59pm

You’re making investment banking seem like some ultra prestigious impossible to get job; in reality it’s just some shit ass job that any moron could do. The whole “we get 1000’s and 1000’s of resumes and can only pick a couple of people for offers” and then make fun of potential applicants is so pathetic for such a lousy fucking job. I go to a regular university and most people I know make a hell of a lot more than any analyst at the bulge bracket level. Hell people with shitty Info Systems degree bank their asses off at 90k+ doing DBA work right out of college and live excellent lifestyles in low-cost to living areas. Anyway it just seems pathetic that I-banks target so hard at top tier schools, couldn’t these students find better jobs? There are so many jobs out there, I could go work in offshore banking in the Cayman Islands and make some good money and enjoy really nice weather. Whatever though, I don’t see the fad in applying to these big shot banks to deal with prestige whores... "OMG look at this kid he has a 3.3 GPA and his experience includes working as a teller at a local bank, why doesn't he go cure AIDS so darkies wont die, what a loser!"

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:05pm

"You’re making investment banking seem like some ultra prestigious impossible to get job; in reality it’s just some shit ass job that any moron could do. The whole “we get 1000’s and 1000’s of resumes and can only pick a couple of people for offers”"

I'm not saying it's not a shit-ass job... I'm saying we get thousands of resumes and can only pick a couple of people for offers. That's the solid truth of the matter. As for why hundreds of people apply for each opening for a shit-ass job... well, I don't know. It's a miserable job, but where else are you going to make a buck fifty right out of college?

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:10pm

Mis Ind:
It's a miserable job, but where else are you going to make a buck fifty right out of college?

Ask engineering and computer science majors, they bank more than entry level analysts and don't even work half the hours. To be honest, if you took the hours you work and divide it by your salary you probably average 20 dollars an hour (if that).

It's so easy to make money in America and you do not have to work that much. I know Chinese immigrants who open up fucking laundry mats (with a loan) and clear 700k a year.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:20pm

Der Bankier:

Ask engineering and computer science majors, they bank more than entry level analysts and don't even work half the hours. To be honest, if you took the hours you work and divide it by your salary you probably average 20 dollars an hour (if that).

It's so easy to make money in America and you do not have to work that much. I know Chinese immigrants who open up fucking laundry mats (with a loan) and clear 700k a year.

Please come up with something orginal to say or shut the fuck up.

---------------- Account Inactive
 
Jan 12, 2007 - 2:06am

Der Bankier:
Mis Ind:
It's a miserable job, but where else are you going to make a buck fifty right out of college?

Ask engineering and computer science majors, they bank more than entry level analysts and don't even work half the hours. To be honest, if you took the hours you work and divide it by your salary you probably average 20 dollars an hour (if that).

It's so easy to make money in America and you do not have to work that much. I know Chinese immigrants who open up fucking laundry mats (with a loan) and clear 700k a year.

Dude, that 700k is shared among 17 people!

Look, I use to live with a bunch of "high" level engineers in San Francisco. One worked for a huge semi and the other for a huge oil/gas company. Both had masters. They did not clear what analysts make, esp. at the 2nd and 3rd-year level.

BUT, on the flip they did have a great life and enjoyed their time-off (i.e. biking, g/f, etc...).

Now if you want to argue as to where the real-money is, it's about becoming an entrepreneur with a great business and opportunity. Start a tech'ish company (using that as an example), get to about $20-30MM revs (again, an example), be profitable, have steady rev growth and sell in an "up market." Walk away with $20-60MM (pre-tax) and you're set (if your Rev multiple is higher, more power to you). I would think $30 million in savings would allow you to do whatever you desired :)

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:26pm

Salam, nothing personally identifiable in those resumes.

Der Bankier, we all make our choices based on a certain level of risk management. I don't want to assume the risk of a business loan, and I certainly don't want the softer compensation curve and extra education of engineering. As for CS majors...well, my fiance did CS at an Ivy and he was waiting tables when I met him. I certainly don't see people getting out of school topping 75 in CS, and even that's a huge stretch.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:36pm

Now this guy is harsh, but he's got a point. I make a buck fifty but I only see sixty of that in salary, and that's not fun. I also do have to pay for all those years of schooling and am in debt up to my eyeballs. So kid's got a bunch of points. I get laid plenty but I'm a special case, and I do try to party but I fall asleep halfway through.

But the payoff isn't here and now, Helmut. (You don't mind if I call you Helmut, do you, der bankier? I didn't think so.) The payoff, Helmut, is in the long run. I'm pleased with my long run. If you don't think you would be, then I definitely think you should go open your Chinese laundry or find one of those easier ways to make money.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:41pm

Well you're pretty wide of the mark on me, but I'm a bit of a special case as well. Your generalization may be true of a lot of people in banking though.

---------------- Account Inactive
 
Jan 11, 2007 - 9:54pm

Yep, but some of us are extraordinarily risk-averse. Like me. I'm a ghetto kid with a GED. Do you know how easy it is for someone like me to fall between the cracks if I don't keep climbing? I want the sure, slow, steady climb, and I don't care what it costs. Personally, I will do whatever it takes to stay off welfare and to keep myself out from behind the counter of a Waffle House and sayin, "What can I get ya, hon?". If you got the connections, if you got the risk tolerance, if you've got someone or something to catch you, then go take your back door into hedge funds. Me, I don't even want hedge funds. Hedge funds will close and open and rise and fall, and I might still slip between the cracks. I want corporations, baby. I want the lowest sigma I can get while still making X amount. And I want a resume I can bank on.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 10:17pm

...but investment bankers never get fired. your lack of experience is blinding you...their have been years when 80% of all analysts on wall st. have been fired. Go ask one of your vp's about several years in the early 90's. Do you think that this pace of corporate activity can last forever? Investment banking is just as perilous as working at a heade fund. Make as much money as you can now...your job is just as vulnerable as somebody who works at a hedge fund, if not more so.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 10:54pm

somebody please shoot me, i cant believe this conversation is going on - please all grow up. one day you will realize that going over resumes and getting to go on road shows is a complete ridiculous joke. get over it and get back to work.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 10:57pm

Hedge fund risk is idiosyncratic where IB risk is systematic. In other words, if IB takes a downturn you've got nowhere to bring your game; all your competitors are hurting as well. If your fund goes under, there are plenty of other healthy shops in town.

 
Jan 11, 2007 - 10:58pm

Sure, I don't think either resume-sifting or road-show-schlepping is something to be immensely proud of. But it's my job, and it's what this site is all about. We have some non-bankers making big deals about minor things, but that's also kind of commonplace here in IBO-land.

Perhaps some prospective bankers are benefiting. From the responses, I believe some are.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 12:43am

Hedge funds face plenty of systemic risk. Some can make money during tough markets for awhile, but assets can't go down forever. Returns across the universe of hedge funds are ultimately dependent on rising asset prices.

It's also very easy to run a fund with 5 people instead of 10 when returns are down.

Bankers, especially early in their career have plenty of opportunities in industry. A young trader or hedge fund analyst will have a much harder time.

---------------- Account Inactive
 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:41am

Just curious, what happens to bankers (not analysts or associates, but lifetime bankers, like MDs and maybe VPs) when the economy sours? Like, say there are 10,000 bankers in NYC right now, fully employed, when the economy is booming. If we suddenly go into a recession and M & A activity dries up next year, do these guys actually get laid off, or do their bonuses just suck? Are there unemployed bankers, sitting at home drinking beer, when recessions occur?

And with regards to analysts, do layoffs actually occur at this level, or does hiring at the university level simply dry up? I can't imagine that a bank would lay off an analyst who has been there for a year and is finally starting to know his stuff before they stopped hiring from colleges for their new class. For instance, if a bank has 200 analysts (100 1st yrs and 100 2nd years - disregarding 3rd yrs) and they realize that the economy is going down and they'll only need 120 analysts next year, wouldn't they keep virtually all of their 1st years and only hire 20 new analysts rather than laying off current first year analysts, since it is much more efficient and cost-effective to do so? It seems like college kids should take the brunt of economic downturns.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 7:22am

Miss Ind.... Stop looking down on people just because you're an analyst that makes a killer $200,000 a year or something like that. WTF is wrong with the guy who made x% returns on his portfolio? Also, you know the guy who got a perfect score on his maths and verbal for SAT2 or something but forgot to include his GPA? Well... I'm sure he'd do really well for himself regardless of whether you hire him or not.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 7:38am

Cafe Apple... sorry to tell you, the guy didn't "forget" to include his GPA. I can't imagine that anyone sharp enough to try his hand at banking would "forget" to put his GPA on his resume.

Once more: the bar is extraordinarily high. (I'm gonna keep saying it as long as it looks like people aren't getting it.)

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 7:52am

I've got a friend on the USAir/Delta deal. I... uh... think that's kinda prestigious. But we are on a banking website, and I'm still stunned at the number of people who stand around here dissing banking. Sure, we're all crap. Nothing but total crap. Crap crap crap.

And of course, you know, senior bankers SALARIES aren't very large at all. Investment bankers use the term "compensation" or "total comp" to refer to what they actually make, which at that level is many times their salary. If you knew that already and actually were referring to this senior banker's total comp, then you are a very lucky girl/boy, because that means your father makes upwards of $100 million a year. That definitely makes you and your dad the winners in a compensation contest. Congrats! (And damn those lowly arrogant banker wankers who think they can hold their heads up with a measy $5 million yearly take!)

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 10:15pm

Mis Ind:
I've got a friend on the USAir/Delta deal. I... uh... think that's kinda prestigious. But we are on a banking website, and I'm still stunned at the number of people who stand around here dissing banking. Sure, we're all crap. Nothing but total crap. Crap crap crap.

And of course, you know, senior bankers SALARIES aren't very large at all. Investment bankers use the term "compensation" or "total comp" to refer to what they actually make, which at that level is many times their salary. If you knew that already and actually were referring to this senior banker's total comp, then you are a very lucky girl/boy, because that means your father makes upwards of $100 million a year. That definitely makes you and your dad the winners in a compensation contest. Congrats! (And damn those lowly arrogant banker wankers who think they can hold their heads up with a measy $5 million yearly take!)

The deal only sounds prestigious insofar as people hype up the nature of the work. Sure, the deal itself is amazing... but is analyst work like frigging formatting and running comps amazing?

On another point, I don't know what the guy's total comp is... only saw his base -> but he's not gonna make 5m, that's for sure. I'm guessing 1.2m maybe max? Tax the bastard, pay his super, and it's what? $600k??

Even if you make 5m, tax it, pay super, maybe around $2.5m. It hurts less when you're at this level. But when you only take home 1m and you pay your taxes, you're easily back into 6-figures.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 8:02am

haha. im a CS major. There is no way a fresh CS graduate makes remotely close to what even a first year analyst makes (including the bonus of course).

On a per hour basis they might make the same or more than an I banking analyst, but bottom line is, at the end of the year an analyst will make twice what a CS fresher makes.

My friend at Intel started with 60. And Cali is expensive.

Its true the techies have lives though. But hey, its not like the analysts are dead you know. I don't think getting fucked up every night constitutes a life. I am satisfied if I can do it once a week ;)

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:13pm

ghosht:
haha. im a CS major. There is no way a fresh CS graduate makes remotely close to what even a first year analyst makes (including the bonus of course).

On a per hour basis they might make the same or more than an I banking analyst, but bottom line is, at the end of the year an analyst will make twice what a CS fresher makes.

My friend at Intel started with 60. And Cali is expensive.

I guess your friend didn't know where to look for a job. Took me 5 seconds to find this on Google (a job in IT consulting)... http://www.allencg.com/acgopens.htm

Now that is a lot of money in Missouri (St. Louis), compare that to what an analyst makes and take into consideration the cost of living. I could afford a huge house, nice car and work half the hours, could a monkey in NYC be able to do that? I think not.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 8:13am

Yes, Ghosht... I think a LOT of people are confusing salaries with total comp.

Also, I know a whole lot of CS people, some with tons of experience, some with great degrees, and so many of them are waiting tables or answering phones at a tech support call center. You gotta be lucky and well-connected or one of those insane kids who can code the teapot from memory (or whatever the modern equivalent is) in order to be a success in CS, and even then they're not at the level of an analyst's total comp. Even Google doesn't pay 22-year olds $150.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 8:18am

(On the other hand, I think people with CS degrees make great i-banking analysts. The extraordinary analytical ability plus the capacity to sit in front of a screen for eighteen hours chugging cans of soda and jamming away is critical. And modeling in Excel is very similar to scanning a zillion lines of code looking for the bust.)

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 12:50pm

Mis Ind:
(On the other hand, I think people with CS degrees make great i-banking analysts. The extraordinary analytical ability plus the capacity to sit in front of a screen for eighteen hours chugging cans of soda and jamming away is critical. And modeling in Excel is very similar to scanning a zillion lines of code looking for the bust.)

CS Majors would rather work in analytics than in vanilla banking. Only CS majors from crummy schools are waiting tables, trust me. I know a C student who got a job at google making over 80k a year for 40 hpw...so yea.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:04pm

My fiance has a CS degree from an ivy league with strong research experience in an internationally-renowned artificial intelligence lab. He ain't dumb. When he got out of college, the only job he could get was IT consulting, which paid crap and treated him poorly.

When I met him, he was waiting tables at Macaroni Grill. When I got him a job running a mutual fund, he was happier than he'd ever been; proud to finally have a worthwhile job. See, so many kids went and got CS degrees before/during the tech bust that the market is completely deluged with bright kids (mid-to-late 20's) who earned degrees that aren't marketable. I've got four other friends with CS degrees in their mid-20's; they'd happily work for $30-40k if they could get it. The trouble is that they can't get it.

Hell, most of the truly successful guys working in CS or IT don't even have degrees. They're old hackers with serious real-world skills.

I think CS might be one area in which academia just can't keep up with what's actually happening on the street.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:15pm

Mis Ind:
My fiance has a CS degree from an ivy league with strong research experience in an internationally-renowned artificial intelligence lab. He ain't dumb. When he got out of college, the only job he could get was IT consulting, which paid crap and treated him poorly.

When I met him, he was waiting tables at Macaroni Grill. When I got him a job running a mutual fund, he was happier than he'd ever been; proud to finally have a worthwhile job. See, so many kids went and got CS degrees before/during the tech bust that the market is completely deluged with bright kids (mid-to-late 20's) who earned degrees that aren't marketable. I've got four other friends with CS degrees in their mid-20's; they'd happily work for $30-40k if they could get it. The trouble is that they can't get it.

Hell, most of the truly successful guys working in CS or IT don't even have degrees. They're old hackers with serious real-world skills.

I think CS might be one area in which academia just can't keep up with what's actually happening on the street.

most ivy schools don't have great CS depts. your fiance probably couldn't code worth anything in the interview.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:24pm

Here's my issue - if you're not competitive, don't waste my time applying. Why is there this sense of entitlement to a crap gpa and poor work experience? If you are applying for these positions, you must know how competetive it is. Investment banking isn't here to win the feel good story of the year. They don't care if you were the Treasurer of your fraternity. They could care even less if you worked retail while going to school. Understand the benchmark required to be competitive, achieve it, then apply.

Face the reality - as harsh as it may be. Although citing specific examples from resumes is a little draconian for my taste - stop making Mis Ind the pariah for your inadequacy.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:33pm

kaross:
Why is there this sense of entitlement to a crap gpa and poor work experience?

Because it is a shit ass worthless job that any moron could do?

It's not like being a doctor/lawyer/someone actually skilled. You sit on your ass all day long staring at Excel trying to figuring out what the cash flow for a company is or whatever. A kid in middle school could do that. Also, why not just apply to boutiques; they aren't that picky since the majority of them recruit at regional colleges and just want someone who can do the work.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:56pm

Der Bankier:
Also, why not just apply to boutiques; they aren't that picky since the majority of them recruit at regional colleges and just want someone who can do the work.

You're completely missing my point. These people are applying to BB's - I presume they must have an idea how competetive it is, yet they still apply. Regardless of how 'shit ass' the work is there is an ante to get into the game.

 
Jan 13, 2007 - 9:14am

[quote=Also, why not just apply to boutiques; they aren't that picky since the majority of them recruit at regional colleges and just want someone who can do the work.[/quote]

You are delusional if you don't think this would happen to you anywhere you apply.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:38pm

I know its a lot of money is associated with banking but sometimes its not all about money. I am an engineer, I developed some very sophisticated softwares, made comfortable money but I just felt its not for me, because it's not always about being in your comfort zone, there are people who like to test the limits and stretch out.

And nothing in this world could be stated in terms or clear Black or White, one man's Gold could be other man's shit. So do what ever you like to do and leave other things to people who like to do them.

There are some people who just like banking and there are others who don't like, if you guys belong to the others then get out of banking but there is no point complaining or bitching about it.

amongst everything else, "blunt" and "straight forward" are two things that are very closely associated with banking, a banker would never give you a sugar coated opinion when all he/she wants to tell you is that,"that you don't fit in". So accept it and move on.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:41pm

manish mahendru:

amongst everything else, "blunt" and "straight forward" are two things that are very closely associated with banking, a banker would never give you a sugar coated opinion when all he/she wants to tell you is that,"that you don't fit in". So accept it and move on.

Unless... you're... a minority... then they walk on egg shells.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:52pm

Der Bankier:

Unless... you're... a minority... then they walk on egg shells.

Well thats great that you know it,
So the point I am trying to make is take it if you like it (or if you could accept it the way it is) or else just leave it. But there is absolutely no point in complaining because it is the way it is and it DOESN'T NEED YOU, so it wont change for you. So if you don't like banking just ditch it and look into another career.

I just wanna make into banking and I am absolutely ready to pay any cost, so there is nothing in the world a banker can say or do to offend me. I meet so many people everyday telling me that I don't have a banker's profile or my resume sucks, but every night when I come back home, I try to change my resume and develop a better story to sell myself.

But by the way people have reacted to this post it doesn't look like there are many prospective monkey's in the forum. I just get a feeling that a lot of people here want to get into banking just for the sake of benefits it brings but are not willing to pay the price for it.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 1:46pm

I really disagree with people complaining about entitlement. It's true that getting a job at a BB as a sophomore or freshman is difficult without connections, but getting a job at any large company (which looks great too) is quite possible as a sophomore or freshman. I'm at an ivy league school, but I don't have many connections. I was still able to intern for an F500 company after my sophomore year. If you put some effort into it, there's no reason why you can't get an internship at a large company even if you have no connections. And there's absolutely no reason why you can't get ANY internship, quite frankly. There are a bunch of internship search sites (plus companies post internships that sophs of freshman can apply to, at least at my target school). ANY internship looks far better than working in fast food or retail! At both of my internships before junior year, I worked alongside non-target students. In fact at the internship I did at a local company, everyone but me was from a non-target school. While it's true that you may learn some key skills in retail or fast food, the banks want to see that you're socially smart enough to realize that you need to fit into a certain type of mold. It's analogous to why although the quality of your work won't differ if you're wearing a $50 suit and a tee-shirt under it with sneakers versus a nice suit and polished loafers, the bank wants to hire people who are smart enough to know to dress nicely, because that's simply the status quo.

Also, I think Miss Ind's comments are way more applicable to non-target applicants versus target school applicants. The bar (especially the GPA bar) is naturally much higher for non-target applicants (it's easier to get a 3.8 GPA at Penn State versus UPenn). I didn't have any BB experience applying as a junior from a target, just a solid GPA, interesting ECs, and internships (1 at a large company, 1 at a small local company). I didn't do much at either of these internships, but like Miss Ind said, the bank wants to see that you're smart enough to cast these internships in a good light. For target schools, the GPA bar appeared to be lower than the 3.7/3.8 bar that Miss Ind implies. Generally speaking, 3.5/3.6 plus internships and ECs is enough to get interviewed by a BB, although it's true that the average GPA of those being interviewed is probably higher, around 3.7. If you're doing a dual degree or have a hard major (like engineering), the GPA bar drops. The GPA bar for the top boutiques is somewhat higher (maybe 3.7/3.8), because they're interviewing less people so they need a higher cutoff.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 2:04pm

This is pathetic. Quit crying about how mean the original post was - she gave you a real leg up in the application process.

I'm not in banking - I'm in management consulting. I hate to break it to all you people, but it is just as cutthroat in 95% of America's prestigious companies. The reality is that if you want to work at an industry darling, be sure that there are 10,000 other kids that want the same job.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 3:44pm

Despite what others have said, I appreciate what you are doing Miss Ind. While I am still young, I have a better understanding of how harsh this business is and what is condoned and condemned in reference to the hiring process. As ironic as it may sound to some of the other posters, this has been a valuable asset to me, and I want to illustrate my appreciation of your honesty.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 4:17pm

Wow, this message board has great potential now that you, Ms. Ind, have started this thread.

I'm sure all of you have worked very hard to be where you are currently. Although I despise nepotism, in defense to you Ms. Ind, it is your job to limit risk when hiring daddy's little boy or girl. This is low risk because you know your going to get a consistent stream of non-talented and shallow personnel. You are absolutely right, that's the way it goes. I can tell you were the crux of your progressive left-wing secular click in high school.

Investment Banking is a competitive field for talented and non-talented people. How does that saying go? “Investment Bankers are smart for choosing who their parent’s are.”

Disclaimer: I respect all of your opinions.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 5:37pm

Okay the people who talk all that crap about parent connections....just name one place where those dont work..ivy league admissions..yes they do....placing you into further higher level college education...yeah...getting you a great job anywhere after you graduate..yes they do (Do you really think all the kids of politicians are inherently smart)....I think the industry isn't just composed of those kind of people...

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 5:54pm

I just want to make sure I make myself clear.

I do think that parents of fortunate kids that "make it" into Investment Banking are very smart and deserve the best for their kids. After all, some of them had to start somewhere near the bottom of the totem pole. The parents hopefully worked very hard to be where they are today.

However, I can't help but think to myself that a lot (not all) of these fortunate kids lack the people skills and intelligence that most hard working students have. Also, a lot of these kids don't appreciate how lucky they are. But, that’s the way it is and that’s the way it will be.

 
Jan 12, 2007 - 7:50pm

Okay; let me make myself clear as well. It's my life's goal (as well as the goal of the charitable foundation that my legacy will fund) to launch a guerilla assault of poor, hungry, hardworking kids first into the nation's best universities and trade schools and second into the bastions of whatever dream career they aim for... and the more closed-minded, the more conservative, the more exclusive, the better. I'm willing to employ every resource at my disposal. I'm going to find loopholes and kick doors down, just like I did for myself... except I'll have a lot more ready cash, and quite a few like-minded people to help me.

It's my goal to give them similar preparations (travel experiences, support networks, tutoring, extensive life opportunities) to the sleek, pampered, wealthy kids that populated my school and that now populate my working life. They'll just be coming from a slightly different perspective.

Because in my experience, those who lose the game are those who never expected themselves to win it. People with the appropriate support network rarely fail.

So at this point it probably goes without saying that I am not looking to perpetuate the practice of hiring the "right kids". I don't want the right kids. I want the hardcore psychos who came up from the streets. I'll talk to the kid who worked in his parents' restaurant every night from age twelve to age twenty, because that's serious sacrifice, hard customer service, humility, and a willingness to give up the Saturday night social life to fulfill one's duties. But I don't want to talk to the girl whose last three summers consist of Abercrombie and Fitch, Hollister, and Express. That smacks of unwillingness to compete. If she wanted to make something of herself, she should have started outside the mall.

 
Jan 13, 2007 - 4:40pm

Der Bankier, what are you doing on an I-banking board bashing the profession?
About CS majors, can tell you for a fact. My friend graduated from UT Austin, now works for Cisco in San Jose. Gets 80k a year. What does he do at his job? Recompiles archives/codes by using an automated program that they have, while doing whatever else he can. Very analytical and thoughtful job, right?!??!?!?!
And all these people who got mad at MisInd for criticizing resumes prolly won't be able to survive the harsh, tough, dirty i-banking/trading/financial markets industry. If you think that that's harsh, not polite, overly critical, etc., : wake up, it's not a kindergarten anymore. In order to break in you need to do all you can, because there are thousands of people wanting that job, and you do need to stand out. She's telling you what not to do, and helping you become a candidate, but you keep dissing her. But you know what, no matter what you say about her, she's still gonna be the one deciding whether to keep you resume or throw it out. Tough life, get used to it.

 
Jan 13, 2007 - 5:04pm

I don't see it as harsh, it's just nitpicking over some bullshit, that's all. I honestly could careless what an investment banker thinks during interviews or about resumes. I just speak my mind (but not in a bad way), and ever interview I've ever had it's better to just not have a worry in the world and go with it over being some panicked kid who has butterfly's in his or hers stomach. Hell the movie Office Space comes to mind now. These bulge bracket banks just seem so ridiculous (or maybe it's just the employees), I mean honestly... I just read a thread where people were like "don't use a blackberry (or whatever its called) during internships so you can be in the office more" - how pathetic.

 
Jan 15, 2007 - 7:06am

I have never worked in retailing and in fast food industry. I have 4 years of originating debts on Emerging Markets. I am multiligual obviously, speak 4 languages to be precise and am learning 5th. I had a very good career back home, personal chauffeur, and all those consequences that you have while working in IB. But I decided that I want to study abroad, I got the scholarship and left my warm nest and here I am, with my Master, already the 6th month trying to get the job in investment banking.

Back home I used to work from 9am till 3 am. Because you first work with your own domestic market, then you wait answers from your European partners, and then from the American ones. And you need to prepare the report by 9 am for your VP. That is more or less the same with the European and American bankers as I learned only recently.

But unfortunately, back home, I could take a break for a lunch and a dinner, and the rest of my time was busy writing reports, checking the juniors job, teaching them, working sometimes while having a cold and fever. Not to mention that you have to look nice and strict and sexy and professional at the same time. And it would be nice if b/w 2-3 am and 9 am you could read a book or learn some new words of the new target language.

But, reading your posts, I have started seriously wondering about how many hours approximately you, here I mean you - a hypothetical working i-banking analyst, spend over the bloggs and forums postings (reading them, answering, etc) and then say you work until midnight?

Anyway, thank you a lot for your posting, since now I know that it is not me and my skills that do not actually match despite my experience, languages, classifications and even a obtained work permit.

Open to all, closed to prejudice
  • 1
 
Jan 16, 2007 - 11:52am

Oh, we definitely have free time every day. It could be thirty minutes, and it could be eight hours, but there's definitely always time when all your work is done and you're waiting on turns. That doesn't mean we don't work, of course. Here's an example.

You get in at 10 AM. You immediately plunge into comments that came in over the night. You finish the turn at 12:45 PM. You send it to your senior. The senior is at lunch. He comes back, hits the office for fifteen minutes, tells you he'll look at your turn after he gets back from a client meeting (which will be at 4:30 PM). He gets delayed and doesn't get back until 6 PM. He takes two hours to do his thing and turn your book. You get comments at 8 PM. The comments are extensive and you turn them until 2 AM, when you email them back to him (or car them to him, if necessary).

That day isn't abnormal. It's a sixteen-hour day, of which nine was spent working and seven was spent waiting. You're not allowed to leave the office, of course, and all fun websites and personal emails are blocked. So what do you do on a day like that? You screw around on IBOasis, check your comps, read CNN, fiddle with your 401(k) allocations, write the great American novel, and so forth.

So yes, I DO say I work until midnight. And later. That's perfectly fair. Sometimes it's balls-to-the-wall nearly the whole time, and sometimes there are immense spaces of dead time. But as far as I see it, if I'm not at home living a real life, if I'm trapped at work scrutinizing CNN for the third straight hour, I'm definitely not calling that free time, 'kay?

DiGio: sorry, dude, but you could use a few more words of the ol' target language there. You sound like you're trying to fake an Italian accent on the internet. Sorry it is already the sixth month trying to get the job. Perhaps you should go back home and enjoy the personal chauffeur and the warm nest? We don't have those things in investment banking.

 
Jan 18, 2007 - 9:24pm

Damian: Thank you. Your inferences about the industry are correct. About me: well, I'm not a swimsuit model, and since the penis-size thing has become something of a leitmotif, let me explain that I don't think 6.5" is at all small. In fact, it's very much on the large side and something with which any woman would be more than happy. The point of my argument was that you don't want to make a point of bragging about something unless you're fairly sure that it's truly extraordinary, and I'd say 6.5" is only somewhat extraordinary. In other words, if you're ever thinking about starting a dick-banging contest in a room of twenty guys and you're 6.5", you're taking a big risk. You might win, and you might get owned. Best to win by other, less risky methods, eh?

 
Jan 18, 2007 - 9:34pm

The mentioning of the penis thing had more to do with lightening the mood and pointing out that, especially in this case, personal attacks are pointless. The fact of the matter is that the depth of the average female is about 5.5-6" so should you have anything above that, you're hitting a wall which can be very painful for both the guy and the girl (you tend to learn things when you actually listen to people). But this is a topic for a completely different website and I'm sure the immature ones who read this will probably take a personal size shot at me. Oh well...let them.

 
Jan 19, 2007 - 12:11am

About twenty percent of the resumes I go through for summer internships have gpa's that are inaccurate or just flat out lies. Today I grilled one such applicant over the phone, he apoligised for having had the sniffles from the flu, and after asking him about his 3.98 gpa he threw up. I'd rather a 3.4 from a solid public school like Rutgers, of which I am an alum, than an Ivy League shmuck that quite literally lacks intestinal fortitude!!! Has anyone else had this problem while going through resumes?

 
Jan 19, 2007 - 6:27pm

The Ivy League is more guilty of grade inflation than questionable integrity (although I'm sure that is prevalent as well). I know there are a lot of really smart kids in Cambridge or New Haven but there are a lot of legacies, too.

It is my understanding that a bell-shaped curve is not applied to grading at these fine institutions and perhaps it shouldn't be. But, I just don't buy that everyone is exceptional.

 
Jan 19, 2007 - 7:21pm

Okay, here's some evidence that I'm not just trying to randomly squish readers' egos here:

I've just heard two other analysts in my group going through resumes and cover letters. They selected and loudly shouted the following sentences out over the floor, with much laughter:

"[Your Bank] is truly a BATTLESHIP in the [whatever] sector, which is why I am inspired to apply for your summer analyst position." (The word "battleship" is repeated ad nauseum across the floor with much hilarity.)

"As the only MALE CHEERLEADER on the team, I was responsible for [blah blah blah]." (One analyst replies: "I don't want any fucking male cheerleaders on this floor."

"My SOLE PASSION IN LIFE is to become an investment banker with [your bank]." (The analyst's remark is: "My sole passion in life is to get laid and then spend the rest of my time sleeping. Except for Monday Night Football. That's priority number one.")

I've just witnessed a public grilling that made my little private jokes look mild.

Oh, and I just watched one of our MDs completely rip into a wintern for no reason except that the wintern said something slightly stupid in an attempt to make small talk. The MD spent around fifteen minutes making fun of the guy, and all the guy could do was grin and bear it.

Word to the wise: be prepared. You can say we're all a bunch of asshole jerkoffs if you want, but if you want to work in this environment, you gotta be ready for this crap. And crap it is.

 
Jan 19, 2007 - 8:30pm

We all make fun of each other; fairly normal. However, nobody makes fun of my GED. That's actually a bad sign, because it means that they feel that it's not fair game. Or maybe they're just being sensitive middle- and upper-class people instead of unthinking middle- and upper-class people.

 
Jan 20, 2007 - 12:33am

^^ I wouldnt actually mind anything analysts might throw at me, if i ever get into ibanking i.e., I mean lets face it being at the bottom of the ladder and toiling 100+ hrs a week...recruiting is pretty much the only time they can vent some of the frustration out....

 
Jan 20, 2007 - 6:50am

MD humiliating an intern just because he's trying to make small talk? That's disgusting. But it all depends how much bargaining power you have as an intern. If you're a gun, you could just go anywhere... and you wouldn't put up with that. Maybe the kid's not a gun... so he'll just have to live with it.

 
Jan 20, 2007 - 8:42am

Unfortunately, Cafe, the guy's got no bargaining power. I'm not sure I know any interns who could walk away from one internship program and into another.

I started to feel incredibly sorry for him as the MD's assault dragged on, but I couldn't stand up for him. Not only would that mark me as a non-team-player and potential outsider, but the MD kept his tone so light and jokey that he could have always used the defense that he was just playing. Also, he was poised to accuse anyone who disapproved of his jokes of having no sense of humor. He set this up by constantly saying, "You've got a sense of humor, right dude? Right?" What can the guy say to that?

Nah, the kid was screwed. He handled it very well, though, and I'm sure it won't count against him in the hiring decision.

 
Jan 21, 2007 - 9:26am

personally, i would give it back to the md, jokingly of course. although, where i'm at now, i can do that without it getting in the way of work/promotions. as an intern, you need to bear it, i guess.

what i would recommend to most junior people is to not suck up too blatenly to mds and other senior people. this isn't school or university. you want him/her to see you as a potential pro.

 
Jan 25, 2007 - 10:32pm

Are you really going to do that as a summer? Doubtful. One summer associate basically wrecked any chance he had of landing a full-time job from the first week he worked when he had the bad judgement to ask a group-head level banker if he was the father of a famous actor with the same last name. He wasn't - he was his brother.

No offer. End of investment banking career.

relinquo:
personally, i would give it back to the md, jokingly of course. although, where i'm at now, i can do that without it getting in the way of work/promotions. as an intern, you need to bear it, i guess.

what i would recommend to most junior people is to not suck up too blatenly to mds and other senior people. this isn't school or university. you want him/her to see you as a potential pro.

 
Jan 26, 2007 - 7:20am

Yeah. I wish senior bankers (as a group) had that much humor. Some do; most don't. Don't ever make fun of an MD. At least not for the first two years you work with him. After that you can play it by ear.

 
Mar 6, 2007 - 4:18pm

iice74:
I disagree I think she was very honest and very helpful...This is what we need to know, not what career centers and recruiters tell us but what the bankers looking at resumes are thinking when they get your cover and resume

True dat

 
Mar 29, 2007 - 7:11pm

to the people having a cry on here:

if you're moaning about only being able to get a shitty part-time job during uni then hey guess what start ur own company -that's what I did

and those who don't have 'family connections' fawk!, get a life - have you ever heard of a concept called networking? it's where you join industry associations (some have student memberships) and attend seminars and networking functions and go-out-and-make-your-own-connections!

You've got to have the winning aleksey vayner attitude! :D

 
Mar 29, 2007 - 11:56pm

That's the sentiment out there and a lot of what goes on in i-bking is marketing related. It's first and foremost about making the pitch. You want to impress them enough to call you in, but don't lie. Wasn't there a case where some guy said he was a Navy Seal, and got busted? I had come across a resume where the guy had a career in IT consulting and wanted to make the switch into i-bk, and wrote that he would not consider an offer less than CDN$40k...out of touch with reality and obviously not i-bk material. People have put stupid things on their resume, just don't let that be you.

 
Apr 1, 2007 - 7:48am

Of course not, Nirav. I haven't seen your resume, of course, but there's nothing wrong with a 3.7 from a non-target and some related work experience. Of course, as you know, the higher your GPA (particularly from a non-target) the better your chances.

 
Apr 1, 2007 - 2:36pm

Some of the ones I posted (and the sample GPAs I posted recently) are from non-targets. I'm from an essentially non-target school myself.

 
Apr 4, 2007 - 1:09am

Agreed, this post is such a load of crap created by Mis Ind because she has some sort of chip on her shoulder

 
Apr 4, 2007 - 9:20am

Personally, I have been on a committee (non-target) where we had so many to sort through and so few slots that we were told to ignore anything under 3.7. I think 3.5 is a more normal floor, however, and of course some committees, some recruiters, don't believe in floors. It's all a matter of chance: who's looking at your resume and who's in charge. Some people are GPA hounds, some love athletics, et cetera.

Me, I look for a strong story. Wherever possible I want to get a sense of the person behind the resume, where they come from, what their experience has been like. Of course, all the normal things a recruiter looks for, all the normal notches on a top candidate's belt, must be there as well or there's no use in standing up for that candidate in the committee.

For junior committee members like myself, the most important thing is what you can get the group to agree on. Personal beliefs and preferences take a back seat to the group consensus. Those of you who've studied sociology will understand how brutal (and sometimes capricious and inefficient) this practice actually is.

 
Apr 4, 2007 - 9:24am

Well I like this thread:
- It's funny,
- It's not a prestige ranking,
- Applicants should read it and learn. I see so many shit CVs, and know people with fantastic experiences who either don't put them on paper or write them down so badly. Communication is a core skill!

 
Apr 4, 2007 - 9:50am

EuroMonkey:
Well I like this thread:
- It's funny,
- It's not a prestige ranking,
- Applicants should read it and learn. I see so many shit CVs, and know people with fantastic experiences who either don't put them on paper or write them down so badly. Communication is a core skill!

Amen!

I hate the prestige threads.

And he's right, CV presentation is in many ways more important than actual experience.

They flip through these CVs and you are lucky if they spend 30 seconds looking at your CV. I am looking for a reason to throw you out because I've got 500 hundred of these on my desk.

A spelling mistake, poor grammar, and non-aligned margins are easy ways for me to weed out people from this huge stack of CVs.

 
Apr 4, 2007 - 9:27am

How does your comittee react on networking efforts in the initial stage of selecting candidates for interviews:

1)
Relatives of the MD with a 3.0 GPA, non target, not much experience, the MD insists he/she gets an interview and even worse, get the full time position?
2)
A professor of Finance of NYU who is a friend of a MD recommends a student with 2.9 GPA , not much experience

How do you make the final decision about which candidate to get the full time position? I assume the candidate who is liked the most by the team will get the offer. This might imply the candidate with the 4.0 GPA, relevant experience , team captain in American Football will be rejected for a candidate with a 3.0 GPA and no experience...
What is your view on this and more importantly what is HR's view?

 
Apr 17, 2007 - 12:41pm

Nice one! Must have be amazing. Good thing it was at the Nou Camp, Real Madrid have a great stadium but shit fans. They make no noise.

To answer your question I'm not a Barca fan, although I love to see them play. So I guess you're London based too. What was the el clasico atmosphere like relative to a good old London Derby?

 
Aug 19, 2008 - 6:51pm

I personally have hired and trained a few people that had decent grades and backgrounds of service; bartenders, waiters etc. and net net they have performed and ultimately earned MUCH MUCH more than the folks you would hire (I hired quite a few that "looked good on paper" and frankly it means bubkus at the end of the day. ps: nor did I feel by hiring those with service business backgrounds that I was doing "charity" work.

 
Mar 5, 2009 - 1:35pm

NooK:
Don't mean to get too personal, but what bank is this?

citi

The world has changed. And we must change with it.

------------ I'm making it up as I go along.
 
Jan 29, 2009 - 4:20am

Read a year or so back on a post from Miss Ind that she moved jobs - can't remember if it was a wealth management role or a MM ... I think it was something like that... tell you waht tho, her posts were always fantastic! I remember once she got into an argument with this other dude on a post about clothing... ace!!!
:)

ahhh... those good ol' days... (good banter at the oasis and pots of deal flow...)

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November 2020 Investment Banking

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