Summer intern dies in London

Mod Note (Andy): Update - This story was confirmed earlier confirmed by our sources. Our prayers go out to his family.

From Bloomberg:

Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, Bank of America spokesman John McIvor said by telephone today. The death is being treated as non-suspicious, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police in London said in a statement.


Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, a Bank of America spokesman said. Source: Seelio via Bloomberg
"He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future," Bank of America said in its statement. "Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time."
Erhardt was found unconscious at Claredale House, a student residential facility in East London. He was pronounced dead at the scene after being treated by paramedics, said the police spokesman, who asked not to be identified, citing agency policy.

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Comments (265)

Aug 16, 2013 - 6:27pm

Seriously? This has not gone around the email chains yet in London... If this is true then it's either some underlying condition or substance abuse. Nobody dies from 1 all-nighter.

Aug 18, 2013 - 2:32pm

Heard he was in J.P. Morgan FIG...

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:50pm

.

“Millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do”
Aug 16, 2013 - 8:23pm

CallmeSir:

Okay. apparently its an intern from BAML.

Source.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
Aug 17, 2013 - 4:47am

hawkish2:

From what I know

- one of the best interns in IBD BAML

- 3 all nighters

- didn't turn up, colleagues went to find him

- heart attack

source: other ppl in london

People can actually stay awake 72 hours without sleeping?? I'm starting my IBD internship at a BB pretty soon but if I have to work 72 hours in a row I'm pretty sure within a few months you guys will be discussing my sudden death.

Aug 17, 2013 - 7:12am

this part is complete and utter guesswork: to stay awake 3 nights you had to have had lots of coffee/+red bull, and that kind of mixture cannot be good for your health. got a friend in baml who confirmed it so it's an incredibly sad situation. And honestly puts the whole work-life balance thing truly into perspective.

Aug 17, 2013 - 8:31am

Rumor spread, job done.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
  • 1
Aug 17, 2013 - 9:42am

hawkish2:

From what I know

- one of the best interns in IBD BAML

- 3 all nighters

- didn't turn up, colleagues went to find him

- heart attack

source: other ppl in london

Member for 11 hours.

Kerli:

Who are you guys to judge and joke?? Think twice, this is not any kind of scandal - we lost a friend!

Member for 1 hour.

Forgive the skepticism... looks like we'll just have to wait a bit to verify this one.

Aug 17, 2013 - 9:43am

i don't see any incentive to spread such kind of "rumours". actually very sad to hear about this

Whether you think you can or you think you can’t, your’re right. - Henry Ford
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:08pm

If this is true, it's flat out horrible.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

Aug 17, 2013 - 12:49pm

Heard BAML is keeping it quiet.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
Aug 17, 2013 - 1:16pm

Scratchy:

Just confirmed it with a SI there whom I know personaly. She was surprised to know that I heard about it.

The WSO information network runs deep

Commercial Real Estate Developer

Aug 17, 2013 - 1:20pm

CRE:

Scratchy:

Just confirmed it with a SI there whom I know personaly. She was surprised to know that I heard about it.

The WSO information network runs deep

Any news on whether it really was a heart attack?

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

  • 1
Aug 17, 2013 - 8:07pm

well its partly senior bankers being retarded but partly also juniors, at some point you have to call it quits, I mean doing 3 all nighters is a bit like wtf, baml isnt even that much a sweatshop, if you just go home after your 2nd all nighter people wont get mad...

Aug 18, 2013 - 7:49am

Why is this not on the news? Surely the press would've known by now.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
Aug 18, 2013 - 12:07pm

Doll Armaker:

Can confirm that HR from one of JPM / MS / GS have sent an e-mail round to line managers of IBD interns saying something along the lines of 'don't work your interns too hard for the final weeks'

Oh wow ...

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

  • 3
Aug 19, 2013 - 11:55pm

Matrick:

Doll Armaker:

Can confirm that HR from one of JPM / MS / GS have sent an e-mail round to line managers of IBD interns saying something along the lines of 'don't work your interns too hard for the final weeks'

Oh wow ...

this is kind of funny.. b/c it reminds me of..
a few years ago there was a suicide (few all nighters -> burn out -> then the analyst got chewed out for something, which quickly seemed like the end of the world given his mental state at the time) at Barc/Leh. a close friend's friend was in the same analyst class.

an email? message? went out from HR informing the MD's to not work the analysts too much. you know, especially the ones in the bullpen that watched the guy deteriorate -- and probably hear him get yelled at i.e. the last straw -- before he took his own life.
as a result, everyone in the analyst class got a weekend off. (woohoo!)

it's not worth it guys.

Aug 18, 2013 - 12:34pm

notthehospitalER:

This is terrible. Probably a kid like the rest of us on WSO who was so excited to be working there, at least when he got the offer...

I don't remember being excited during my IBD stint... worse 3 months of my life.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
Aug 18, 2013 - 2:27pm

Tbh summer analysts need to watch out for themselves a little. I saw these kids in my bank this year just hanging out past 2-3 AM with nothing to do cause they felt like they needed to be there and still show up by 9AM. Then there were the ones who were proud of pulling all nighters or sleeping the office doing bs work.

Array
  • 1
Aug 18, 2013 - 2:55pm

above_and_beyond:

This is just sad..

Hopefully the poor guy's family sues the shit out of BAML.

I certainly hope not. What an awful way to try to reconcile the tragic death of your son.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
  • 1
Aug 18, 2013 - 3:30pm

State of Trance:

Is it a guy for sure ?? Some folks are saying it is a gal.

People on this thread have gone back and forth. I'm not fully convinced this is a real story at this point.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 18, 2013 - 3:54pm

Take_It_To_The_Bank:
You don't die from work. I'd put my money on this being a drug related incident.

Or a prior health thing. But I agree, you don't die from work.

Commercial Real Estate Developer

Aug 19, 2013 - 11:50am

People need to stop commenting on this thread. If you haven't worked these hours you should immediately shut up and refrain from commenting. Period.

To those who have worked a stint in banking or who are currently working who are commenting and laughing or criticizing you should likewise shut up.

Mods should consider locking this thread.

Aug 18, 2013 - 6:02pm

Apple_iBank:

Doll Armaker:

Can confirm that HR from one of JPM / MS / GS have sent an e-mail round to line managers of IBD interns saying something along the lines of 'don't work your interns too hard for the final weeks'

It's not MS, their IBD interns finished a week ago. I don't think it's JPM either, my money is on Goldman

Not quite true, MS IBD interns are going into their last week. Did hear of GS interns at Claredale House being asked by HR about what happened though, so sounds like it might be them.

Aug 18, 2013 - 8:03pm

Take_It_To_The_Bank:

You don't die from work. I'd put my money on this being a drug related incident. Maybe the intern was taking adderall and OD'ed?

Doesn't have to be drug. Working too hard definitely plays a role here. I'm from China and for the past 4 years almost half dozen people died from working too hard at Big 4 and investment banking that were on the news

Aug 18, 2013 - 10:03pm

Arsene Wenger's Father:

Take_It_To_The_Bank:

You don't die from work. I'd put my money on this being a drug related incident. Maybe the intern was taking adderall and OD'ed?

Doesn't have to be drug. Working too hard definitely plays a role here. I'm from China and for the past 4 years almost half dozen people died from working too hard at Big 4 and investment banking that were on the news

Why don't people just refuse to continue working at some point? I like to believe I am very ambitious, and pulling an all-nighter is not an issue I guess, but if my superiors ask me to work 60 hours in a row I'd sincerely tell them to go f*ck themselves. Everybody knows that working such kind of hours without sleeping is not brutal but just complete insanity.

Aug 18, 2013 - 10:52pm

Tristan:

Arsene Wenger's Father:
Take_It_To_The_Bank:

You don't die from work. I'd put my money on this being a drug related incident. Maybe the intern was taking adderall and OD'ed?

Doesn't have to be drug. Working too hard definitely plays a role here. I'm from China and for the past 4 years almost half dozen people died from working too hard at Big 4 and investment banking that were on the news

Why don't people just refuse to continue working at some point? I like to believe I am very ambitious, and pulling an all-nighter is not an issue I guess, but if my superiors ask me to work 60 hours in a row I'd sincerely tell them to go f*ck themselves. Everybody knows that working such kind of hours without sleeping is not brutal but just complete insanity.

There's a lot of pressure which leads you to not always make the best decisions. As a Summer Analyst you're trying your hardest to prove yourself worthy of a full-time offer and it can be easy to neglect your health and sanity.

Aug 18, 2013 - 11:44pm

LHDan:

Tristan:
Arsene Wenger's Father:
Take_It_To_The_Bank:

You don't die from work. I'd put my money on this being a drug related incident. Maybe the intern was taking adderall and OD'ed?

Doesn't have to be drug. Working too hard definitely plays a role here. I'm from China and for the past 4 years almost half dozen people died from working too hard at Big 4 and investment banking that were on the news

Why don't people just refuse to continue working at some point? I like to believe I am very ambitious, and pulling an all-nighter is not an issue I guess, but if my superiors ask me to work 60 hours in a row I'd sincerely tell them to go f*ck themselves. Everybody knows that working such kind of hours without sleeping is not brutal but just complete insanity.

There's a lot of pressure which leads you to not always make the best decisions. As a Summer Analyst you're trying your hardest to prove yourself worthy of a full-time offer and it can be easy to neglect your health and sanity.

also sometimes people think they can work harder when they're still young so when they get older they can work less

Aug 19, 2013 - 7:06am

I am still shocked by seeing people not trusting this...I am telling you guys, saw the ambulance and police with my own eyes.

I remember times after a 130h-week, felt some heart arrhythmia, so people not in the industry please stfu.

Aug 19, 2013 - 7:46am

Fuck... If this is true, it's horrible. How the fuck are people ending their comments with "lol"? Gtfo. If this news gets confirmed, I agree with rufiolove about blocking this thread.

Move along, nothing to see here.
Aug 19, 2013 - 7:53am

I agree. Probably best to not only lock but also delete it. This would be very bad publicity for WSO, @WallStreetOasis.com

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

Aug 19, 2013 - 8:48am

The number of brand new WSO users commenting on this thread is too damn high!

Move along, nothing to see here.
Aug 19, 2013 - 10:32am

magnum:

I am still shocked by seeing people not trusting this...I am telling you guys, saw the ambulance and police with my own eyes.

I remember times after a 130h-week, felt some heart arrhythmia, so people not in the industry please stfu.

You should probably get that checked out, because that is not normal.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
  • 1
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:25pm

dr.schulz:

i don't see any incentive to spread such kind of "rumours". actually very sad to hear about this

i agree, all those chain letters etc. are of great value

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:37pm

companion:

If you're that tired, your body will automatically shut down and you'll fall asleep.

My guess is that he died from a mix of energy drinks, cocaine or some other stimulants.

sure are a lot of doctors on wso these days...

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:38pm

Article:

By Ben Moshinsky and Ambereen Choudhury

Aug. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp. said a 21- year-old intern died one week before completing a summer program.

Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, Bank of America spokesman John McIvor said by telephone today. The death is being treated as non-suspicious, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police in London said in a statement.

"He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future," Bank of America said its statement. "Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time."

Erhardt was found unconscious at Claredale House, a student residential facility in East London. He was pronounced dead at the scene after being treated by paramedics, the police spokesman said, who declined to be identified, citing agency policy.

Erhardt was an exchange student at the University of Michigan's Stephen M. Ross School of Business and attended WHU - Otto Beisheim School of Management in Vallendar, Germany, according to his biography page on social network site seelio.com. In addition to Bank of America's investment banking division, he also said he had work experience at KPMG Consulting, Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank AG's corporate finance division.

He went to high school at Faust-Gymnasium in Staufen, Germany, where he excelled in math and tennis, according to the biography page. His hobbies included sports and politics, according to the profile.

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.
  • 2
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:49pm

Sorry, don't have link :(

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:48pm

@WallStreetOasis.com It's on the terminal only so far. Just read it myself.

Frank Sinatra - "Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy."
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:49pm

Front page I'm guessing...this is something to be wary about - work is important, but your life is undoubtedly more important.

Calm down.
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:54pm

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,
Patrick

Aug 19, 2013 - 1:07pm

Yeah, am on mine now and even under BIO segment he is listed as deceased. Really sad and story linked to his BIO page confirms it from story quoted by That_Aston.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
Aug 19, 2013 - 12:56pm

Well I feel like a dick. Definitely thought this was a troll thread at first.

Damn

Commercial Real Estate Developer

Aug 19, 2013 - 1:40pm

Article text. Bloomberg also has a screen capture of the social network profile:

Wire: Bloomberg News (BN) Date: Aug 19 2013 12:47:57
Bank of America Says 21-Year-Old London Summer Intern Dies (3)

(Updates with school comment in sixth paragraph.)

By Ben Moshinsky and Ambereen Choudhury
Aug. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp. said a 21-year-old intern died one week before completing a summer program.

Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, Bank of America spokesman John McIvor said by telephone today. The death is being treated as non-suspicious, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police in London said in a statement.

"He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future," Bank of America said in its statement. "Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time."

Erhardt was found unconscious at Claredale House, a student residential facility in East London. He was pronounced dead at the scene after being treated by paramedics, said the police spokesman, who asked not to be identified, citing agency policy.

Erhardt was an exchange student at the University of Michigan's Stephen M. Ross School of Business and attended WHU -- Otto Beisheim School of Management in Vallendar, Germany, according to his biography page on social-network site seelio.com.

'Deeply Shocked'

"We are all deeply shocked and saddened," Peter Augustin, a spokesman for the German business school, said in an e-mail.

"At the moment, we do not yet know further details. What we can say is that Moritz was a wonderful person and a dedicated student."

In addition to Charlotte, North Carolina-based Bank of America's investment-banking division, Erhardt also said he had work experience at KPMG Consulting, Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank AG's corporate finance division.

He went to high school at Faust-Gymnasium in Staufen, Germany, where he excelled in math and tennis, according to the biography page. His hobbies included sports and politics, according to the profile.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
  • 2
Aug 19, 2013 - 1:41pm

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 19, 2013 - 2:17pm

NorthSider:

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're coming off a little bit like Captain-Save-A-Bank in this thread.

No, correlation does not imply causation, but pulling three straight all-nighters and doing whatever it takes to make it happen and get your work done (and done right) will take a toll.

I had a friend of mine get an ulcer that really fucked him up from the stress and hours. People's health gets affected big time and senior people often really don't give a shit about anything other than if you turned their comments.

Aug 19, 2013 - 2:37pm

WallStreetOasis.com:

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,

Patrick

Patrick, here's the link (there's a BAML point of contact listed):

{NSN MRSENW6KLVS8 go}

Also, Moritz Erhardt is also listed on the MVP page, and his BIO says "Deceased".

Aug 19, 2013 - 3:10pm

Even though so many people have "confirmed" this, the number of users having 1-15 points commenting/confirming on this thread is suspiciously high. If this is a prank, it's beyond disgusting.

Move along, nothing to see here.
Aug 19, 2013 - 3:11pm

fuck this life, i know the kid. was my friend.
cant confirm the death, haven't heard from him for a while, he was in USA until recently... but i have seen some trustworthy websites publishing the story so i guess it is not some bs.

RIP

Aug 19, 2013 - 3:13pm

WallStreetOasis.com:

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,

Patrick

what dick would throw ms at patrick for trying to ensure legitimacy on his site???

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!
  • 1
  • 1
Aug 19, 2013 - 3:16pm

TheKing:

NorthSider:

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're coming off a little bit like Captain-Save-A-Bank in this thread.

No, correlation does not imply causation, but pulling three straight all-nighters and doing whatever it takes to make it happen and get your work done (and done right) will take a toll.

I had a friend of mine get an ulcer that really fucked him up from the stress and hours. People's health gets affected big time and senior people often really don't give a shit about anything other than if you turned their comments.

Sorry some of us are skeptical that an INTERN would be required to pull 3 straight all-nighters. The point Northsider was making is that you don't actually know the circumstances of the death. Hell, he may have simply pulled one and had some unfortunate complication. Three all-nighters is insane for anyone, let alone an intern with responsibilities more limited than those of his analysts and associates.

Aug 19, 2013 - 3:16pm

CAinPE:

Even though so many people have "confirmed" this, the number of users having 1-15 points commenting/confirming on this thread is suspiciously high. If this is a prank, it's beyond disgusting.

Probably because people are hearing the news (either on bloomberg or through the grapevine), googling it, and finding their way here - also because many people in the industry prefer to keep a low profile (and hence low post counts) on wso

Aug 19, 2013 - 3:46pm

This is potentially horrible. I find it believable. A few years ago an Associate at Skadden passed away from being overworked. So as sad as it may be I don't find this to be unrealistic.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-of-a-skadden-associate/

Also, I think that as much as Associates/VPs can layer on work, it is the culture amongst the analysts that has to change. Site such as WSO perpetuate (and don't get me wrong WSO is great) this culture of people insinuating that you have to work insane hours to get offers/promoted/top bucket. Its an arms race amongst analysts and if everyone tapered back than everyone would benefit. I know plenty of people that didn't work themselves to death and crushed it. People need to stop thinking that pulling insane hours is a must/badge of honor and should only be done when 100% needed. Hopefully some good can come of this and the culture starts changing.

Aug 19, 2013 - 4:15pm

I didn't say anything before because I didn't want to be part of the craziness for obvious reasons, but since it's on bbg I guess there's no point anymore. It's been making the rounds through junior people's emails in London. I heard the story from 3 different people at other banks and I called a friend at ML who confirmed, so this is clearly true.

My thoughts are with the family. Poor kid. This is absolutely appalling.

Aug 19, 2013 - 4:19pm

Maximus Decimus Meridius:

x

Poor family. Wonder what the next steps are...

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
Aug 19, 2013 - 4:18pm

SonnyZH:

Maximus Decimus Meridius:

I didn't say anything before because I didn't want to be part of the craziness for obvious reasons, but since it's on bbg I guess there's no point anymore. It's been making the rounds through junior people's emails. I heard the story from 3 different people at other banks and I called a friend at ML who confirmed, so this is clearly true.

My thoughts are with the family. Poor kid. This is absolutely appalling.

I'm guessing from your post you know more or less what the causes were for the kid?

I don't, and I don't think anyone does until the police does their job. But after hearing the story from different people and the death being confirmed I'm starting to believe all of it, but I shouldn't have said what I said, which is why I edited my post, I would appreciate if you edited yours...

Aug 19, 2013 - 4:26pm

ke18sb:

This is potentially horrible. I find it believable. A few years ago an Associate at Skadden passed away from being overworked. So as sad as it may be I don't find this to be unrealistic.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-o...

Also, I think that as much as Associates/VPs can layer on work, it is the culture amongst the analysts that has to change. Site such as WSO perpetuate (and don't get me wrong WSO is great) this culture of people insinuating that you have to work insane hours to get offers/promoted/top bucket. Its an arms race amongst analysts and if everyone tapered back than everyone would benefit. I know plenty of people that didn't work themselves to death and crushed it. People need to stop thinking that pulling insane hours is a must/badge of honor and should only be done when 100% needed. Hopefully some good can come of this and the culture starts changing.

I agree with most of what you are saying...although I don't think WSO "glorifies banking" or insinuates anything, I think that is the reality that is out there. If you think you can duck out of a Summer Analyst stint early and still get a position nowadays, I hate to break it to you, but it's not the real world. That doesn't mean it's a good trend or that they SHOULD be doing back to back all nighters or working 100 hour weeks. I think the arms race you mentioned is very very real and can be dangerous when taken to extreme levels, but I don't think it is something that can be changed overnight (especially when there are people lined up ready to step in if you are not able to hack it)...

But right now we know very little about what actually happened here, so before we all jump to conclusions let's see if more comes to light about this sad story. Anyway, maybe this will serve as a reminder that you need to protect yourself from the potential health impacts of working 100+hours per week and when to draw the line and just say no.

I remember working 41 hours straight once and I was delirious at the end...I'm sure many of us on here have stories like this and while painful, they didn't result in such a tragic loss. Again, condolences to his family and friends.

Aug 19, 2013 - 11:40pm

WallStreetOasis.com:

ke18sb:

This is potentially horrible. I find it believable. A few years ago an Associate at Skadden passed away from being overworked. So as sad as it may be I don't find this to be unrealistic.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-o...

Also, I think that as much as Associates/VPs can layer on work, it is the culture amongst the analysts that has to change. Site such as WSO perpetuate (and don't get me wrong WSO is great) this culture of people insinuating that you have to work insane hours to get offers/promoted/top bucket. Its an arms race amongst analysts and if everyone tapered back than everyone would benefit. I know plenty of people that didn't work themselves to death and crushed it. People need to stop thinking that pulling insane hours is a must/badge of honor and should only be done when 100% needed. Hopefully some good can come of this and the culture starts changing.

I agree with most of what you are saying...although I don't think WSO "glorifies banking" or insinuates anything, I think that is the reality that is out there. If you think you can duck out of a Summer Analyst stint early and still get a position nowadays, I hate to break it to you, but it's not the real world. That doesn't mean it's a good trend or that they SHOULD be doing back to back all nighters or working 100 hour weeks. I think the arms race you mentioned is very very real and can be dangerous when taken to extreme levels, but I don't think it is something that can be changed overnight (especially when there are people lined up ready to step in if you are not able to hack it)...

But right now we know very little about what actually happened here, so before we all jump to conclusions let's see if more comes to light about this sad story. Anyway, maybe this will serve as a reminder that you need to protect yourself from the potential health impacts of working 100+hours per week and when to draw the line and just say no.

I remember working 41 hours straight once and I was delirious at the end...I'm sure many of us on here have stories like this and while painful, they didn't result in such a tragic loss. Again, condolences to his family and friends.


Interesting, that something good could come out of something so terrible.

RIP.

Maximum effort.
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Aug 19, 2013 - 4:38pm

I totally agree. Also, when I said WSO, I don't mean the site so much as user generated content. My apologies, I should have made that more clear. The site itself is a great tool for the industry; however, I do think that a small share of user generated content tends glamorize the long hours and perpetuate the culture - that's just my opinion. Also, of course there are times when you need to grid it out, we've all been there, I'm more so referring to the late night face time when there is really no purpose and analysts feel they need to be there when really don't have much going on.

WallStreetOasis.com:

I agree with most of what you are saying...although I don't think WSO "glorifies banking" or insinuates anything, I think that is the reality that is out there. If you think you can duck out of a Summer Analyst stint early and still get a position nowadays, I hate to break it to you, but it's not the real world. That doesn't mean it's a good trend or that they SHOULD be doing back to back all nighters or working 100 hour weeks. I think the arms race you mentioned is very very real and can be dangerous when taken to extreme levels, but I don't think it is something that can be changed overnight (especially when there are people lined up ready to step in if you are not able to hack it)...

But right now we know very little about what actually happened here, so before we all jump to conclusions let's see if more comes to light about this sad story. Anyway, maybe this will serve as a reminder that you need to protect yourself from the potential health impacts of working 100+hours per week and when to draw the line and just say no.

I remember working 41 hours straight once and I was delirious at the end...I'm sure many of us on here have stories like this and while painful, they didn't result in such a tragic loss. Again, condolences to his family and friends.

Aug 19, 2013 - 4:48pm

The sad thing is that their really is nothing in this business that really, truly requires pushing people to work those kind of hours. Most of the 4 AM, 5 AM, 6 AM nights that I have had were caused by rediculous requests by seniors that could wait till tomorrow, unnecessary turns by seniors resulting in frivolous comments or a senior banker not having the balls to tell the client that 'first thing in the morning' is not always the most neccessary deadline.

I have worked for plenty of guys who have the competence and confidence to not require their junior folks to meet deadlines like this. Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

Aug 19, 2013 - 4:53pm

Hours are imposed by seniors, not juniors, at least in london. Americans are crazy face time addicted work aholics at all levels, which is reflected on wso which is very American.

Aug 19, 2013 - 5:01pm

FormerHornetDriver:

The sad thing is that their really is nothing in this business that really, truly requires pushing people to work those kind of hours. Most of the 4 AM, 5 AM, 6 AM nights that I have had were caused by rediculous requests by seniors that could wait till tomorrow, unnecessary turns by seniors resulting in frivolous comments or a senior banker not having the balls to tell the client that 'first thing in the morning' is not always the most neccessary deadline.

I have worked for plenty of guys who have the competence and confidence to not require their junior folks to meet deadlines like this. Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

This is 1,000% fact. So many dumb requests with unnecessary turnaround times that absolutely crush your will. That, and it's always like "sure thing, we'll have it to you first thing in the morning, and we'll also do this, this, and this..."

Just unnecessary work all around that brutalizes people.

Aug 19, 2013 - 5:02pm

WallStreetOasis.com:

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,

Patrick

It is definitely not a prank.
I heard about it first saturday.

Aug 19, 2013 - 5:07pm

peinvestor2012:

Sorry some of us are skeptical that an INTERN would be required to pull 3 straight all-nighters. The point Northsider was making is that you don't actually know the circumstances of the death. Hell, he may have simply pulled one and had some unfortunate complication. Three all-nighters is insane for anyone, let alone an intern with responsibilities more limited than those of his analysts and associates.

Thank you for your sanity.

This is a ludicrous thread given the dearth of actual details. Not a single person on this thread has any idea whatsoever what happened in this situation. The fact that this has devolved into a woe-is-me spite-fest about IB is a testament to how blood-thirsty the world is for every last drop of sensationalism that can be squeezed out of every story.

Before we turn this tragedy into an emblem of the cruelty of IB hours, how about we - you know - actually wait to hear what happened. Before we start suggesting that people ought to sue or someone ought to be prosecuted, let's find out the circumstances. Not every death is a conspiracy.

By the law of large numbers, unfortunate deaths are bound to occur every so often among a group of thousands of 21 year-old interns around the globe. It sickens me that people insist on being so opportunistic. Just because someone died doesn't give you the authority to parade your own agenda under the guise of sympathy.

Here's to hoping that things are sorted out by the proper authorities and that the family gets the closure they deserve.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
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Aug 19, 2013 - 5:09pm

Reading the guys Seelio page is sad:

"Therefore, I really want to move something in life. Profound injustices and inequalities are a result of the
growing divergence in wealth. I want to contribute to build a fairer, more peaceful, more humane world
of greater solidarity. This may sound naïve and presumptuous but I want to give it a try at the very least
even though I am likely to fail. That is what my character is all about. People discouraging me shall not
keep me from trying to fulfill my dreams and desires in life."

As a intern working in London, living in the same building as Moritz was, this news really is shocking to me. Kind of puts it all in perspective.

RIP.

Aug 19, 2013 - 5:09pm

FormerHornetDriver:
Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

Unless you have some undisclosed informant: No. It doesn't. Can we stop the hollow speculation in this thread?

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 19, 2013 - 5:21pm

NorthSider:

FormerHornetDriver:

Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

Unless you have some undisclosed informant: No. It doesn't. Can we stop the hollow speculation in this thread?

what do you think happens? Police comes out saying it was/was not the consequence of long IB hours? Would that be the point when it's more that just "hollow speculation"?

Whether you think you can or you think you can’t, your’re right. - Henry Ford
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Aug 19, 2013 - 5:27pm

dr.schulz:

what do you think happens? Police comes out saying it was/was not the consequence of long IB hours? Would that be the point when it's more that just "hollow speculation"?

What? I think everyone in this thread should wait for the police to disclose the cause of death before spewing vitriol that implicates other people as being a involved in and/or a key cause of this tragic death.

As per usual, we all love to bypass investigations, trails, etc. in favor of delivering our own groundless, factless judgments about who ought to be blamed. As if that somehow helps the situation.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
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Aug 19, 2013 - 5:37pm

I'm curious as to why you aren't getting frustrated with the posters who are commenting that it must have been drugs/caffeine/etc as the cause of the death but only with the posters who are commenting that it must have been the hours?

I agree with your point that everyone needs to wait to hear what happened, but it seems as though you are still siding with those who say it couldn't have been the bank's fault.

Why haven't you made a comment against the posters who think it was drugs/substance abuse like the one below you made against the posters who blame the bank:

"Before we turn this tragedy into an emblem of the cruelty of IB hours, how about we - you know - actually wait to hear what happened. Before we start suggesting that people ought to sue or someone ought to be prosecuted, let's find out the circumstances. Not every death is a conspiracy."

Aug 19, 2013 - 5:59pm

socman:

I'm curious as to why you aren't getting frustrated with the posters who are commenting that it must have been drugs/caffeine/etc as the cause of the death but only with the posters who are commenting that it must have been the hours?

I agree with your point that everyone needs to wait to hear what happened, but it seems as though you are still siding with those who say it couldn't have been the bank's fault.

Why haven't you made a comment against the posters who think it was drugs/substance abuse like the one below you made against the posters who blame the bank:

"Before we turn this tragedy into an emblem of the cruelty of IB hours, how about we - you know - actually wait to hear what happened. Before we start suggesting that people ought to sue or someone ought to be prosecuted, let's find out the circumstances. Not every death is a conspiracy."

Because the people who are suggesting it was substance abuse aren't accusing people of being culpable for his death. Both are nothing more than idle speculation, but one has an impact on the people proximate to the situation.

How often in the age of the internet do we hear of people being wrongfully implicated by the media / bloggers / etc.? Do you remember the Boston bombings, when Reddit had already "discovered the identity of the bomber", whose likeness was spread throughout the internet only for it later to be reported that he had died months earlier? Or when the wrong Sandy Hook shooter was erroneously reported, whose Facebook photos were spread throughout the internet before he posted "I'm on a bus right now"?

Everyone needs instant answers, and everyone wants to get their piece of the drama. Unfortunately for those in close proximity to tragic circumstances, that means millions of internet sheep preemptively blaming you for something for which you were clearly not culpable.

Let me also remark that if those suggesting this was a drug-related death were posting rants lambasting the "drug culture", or pushing some political agenda about how we should have stricter controls on drugs, etc., I would be equally sickened. Opportunism is just unjustifiable in this situation.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
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Aug 19, 2013 - 6:03pm

magnum:

It is spreading:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2397527/Ba...

Fantastic. Here we go...

Commence an onslaught of half-baked journalism quoting anonymous first-time WallStreetOasis users as a source to scandalize a contextless event. Just wait until Reddit starts posting the names and email addresses of Erhardt's superiors. That way they can get thousands of hate mail messages before we have any information whatsoever re: cause of death.

This is precisely what I have been advocating against.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
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Aug 19, 2013 - 6:33pm

Since when have anonymous posters on WSO become credible sources of information for big media outlets?
Journalism nowadays disgusts me.

Currently: future psychiatrist (med school =P) Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
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Aug 19, 2013 - 6:54pm

chicandtoughness:

Since when have anonymous posters on WSO become credible sources of information for big media outlets?

Journalism nowadays disgusts me.

Everyone feels the need to be a part of the scandal. Therefore, everything that sounds newsworthy must involve a scandal. And anyone is a credible source of information. After all, you're just reported what was said on another website!

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
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Aug 19, 2013 - 6:39pm

Agree with NorthSider. Despite all "reports" of over working, for all we know he could've slipped in the shower and hit is head. Very unlikely, but just as plausible as any other until we have real facts.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
Aug 19, 2013 - 6:52pm

Anihilist:

Agree with NorthSider. Despite all "reports" of over working, for all we know he could've slipped in the shower and hit is head. Very unlikely, but just as plausible as any other until we have real facts.

Exactly. All of this is equally plausible.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 19, 2013 - 6:59pm

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Aug 19, 2013 - 8:02pm

heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
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Aug 19, 2013 - 8:08pm

NorthSider:

heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.
Could he have taken drugs? Sure.
However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.

Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Aug 19, 2013 - 7:51pm

Firstly, terrible news. I myself endured a 50 some hour adderall binge and I thought I was going to have a heart attack, to imagine 72 hours would be insane.

Also, I'm astonished that WSO was quoted in an actual news article, especially from such a user (though I have no more prestige).

Aug 19, 2013 - 8:09pm

It's a tragic story, but I'm convinced that we're not seeing the full picture. Whatever the reasons may be, any death is sad and we're not adding any value by whipping up controversy and speculation.
This thread will rapidly descend into a tirade of bank hatred and work/life bragging/hating if it goes any further.

Aug 19, 2013 - 9:01pm

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that
2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit
3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

Array
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Aug 19, 2013 - 9:16pm

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.


I completely agree. To anyone who thinks 3 days of sleep deprivation is not possible (or a banker doing so is the peak of all physical exhaustion) has never been to Ranger School. This can be done without taking controlled substances, while hiking 10+ km a day up and down mountains in northern Georgia with a full ruck sack on your back, carrying an M240B machine gun, drinking water out of a stream, and eating 2 MREs a day (only 2 hours apart). Yes, your body will shut itself down, and you will take frequent power naps as short as 10 sec., but you're body will adapt. People do this every day. I know - I've done it.

So, yeah, let's wait to draw conclusions until there is more information. And please spare me the Navy Seal references - if I ever hear someone compare how hard a banker works to a someone in special operations ever again I'm going to lose it.

Aug 19, 2013 - 9:17pm

Ranger375:

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

I completely agree. To anyone who thinks 3 days of sleep deprivation is not possible (or a banker doing so is the peak of all physical exhaustion) has never been to Ranger School. This can be done without taking controlled substances, while hiking 10+ km a day up and down mountains in northern Georgia with a full ruck sack on your back, carrying an M240B machine gun, drinking water out of a stream, and eating 2 MREs a day (only 2 hours apart). Yes, you're body will shut itself down, and you will take frequent power naps as short as 10 sec., but you're body will adapt. People do this every day. I know - I've done it.

So, yeah, let's wait to draw conclusions until there is more information. And please spare me the Navy Seal references - if I ever hear someone compare how hard a banker works to a someone in special operations ever again I'm going to lose it.

Cue Heister...

Aug 19, 2013 - 11:44pm

Ranger375:

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

I completely agree. To anyone who thinks 3 days of sleep deprivation is not possible (or a banker doing so is the peak of all physical exhaustion) has never been to Ranger School. This can be done without taking controlled substances, while hiking 10+ km a day up and down mountains in northern Georgia with a full ruck sack on your back, carrying an M240B machine gun, drinking water out of a stream, and eating 2 MREs a day (only 2 hours apart). Yes, your body will shut itself down, and you will take frequent power naps as short as 10 sec., but you're body will adapt. People do this every day. I know - I've done it.

So, yeah, let's wait to draw conclusions until there is more information. And please spare me the Navy Seal references - if I ever hear someone compare how hard a banker works to a someone in special operations ever again I'm going to lose it.

Sure, but consider this: Ranger candidates are a select group of applicants in peak physical condition pulled from a larger group of physically active people. Every potential Ranger is already in exemplary physical condition.

Bankers? Not so much.

Aug 19, 2013 - 10:01pm

This is so off base. Yea for the vast majority of people under the vast majority of circumstances you can do these hours (maybe even with drugs) and nothing will happen. This is a long tail problem. You 100% can die from exhaustion, from working too hard. Is it extremely rare, of course. But it unequivocally can happen. Way too much machismo in your post as well as others. Right now we don't know why it happened but it is very possible that it did for the reason the people are speculating. There is so much flawed logic in your post. No need to have such a myopic and hard-lined opinion on something that you know very little about, both medically and in terms of this particular situation.

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

Aug 19, 2013 - 10:33pm

ke18sb:

This is so off base. Yea for the vast majority of people under the vast majority of circumstances you can do these hours (maybe even with drugs) and nothing will happen. This is a long tail problem. You 100% can die from exhaustion, from working too hard. Is it extremely rare, of course. But it unequivocally can happen. Way too much machismo in your post as well as others. Right now we don't know why it happened but it is very possible that it did for the reason the people are speculating. There is so much flawed logic in your post. No need to have such a myopic and hard-lined opinion on something that you know very little about, both medically and in terms of this particular situation.

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

Re-read my post. Or maybe have someone else read it and explain it to you.

Array
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Aug 20, 2013 - 1:25am

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

+1. Thank goodness someone still has some sensibility.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
  • 3
Aug 19, 2013 - 9:05pm

In Japan and Korea, work death (kaisha shi) is a recognized cause of death. The company is expected to pay the family since they were the ones controlling the worker's hours.

I dont see how its any different here. So he might have had some underlying condition/drug abuse but both of them would have been made worse by the unreasonable hours, e.g. 3 all nighters. The fact you need to be in perfect shape to handle those hours shows how fucked up they are.

I would hope this would be a wake up call for the industry but i know they'll forget about it with a new cohort of kids and a new year end bonus goal.

Aug 19, 2013 - 9:12pm

This thread, the conjecture associated with it, the event itself, 99% of the people posting here, and the journalists that thought this was a credible source all fucking suck.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
Aug 19, 2013 - 9:56pm

I'm not particularly choosing a side here, but for those who are saying 3 all nighters are doable just because *you* have done it or someone else has is faulty logic. Sure, navy seals have been physically trained to withstand such harsh environments. Certain people are simply biologically and physically able to stay somewhat useful after 72 hours of no sleep. However, does that mean 72 hours is not excessive? Does that mean *anyone* can do what you certain people have? No and no. That's like pointing to the guy at the gym left to me right now and saying "he can bench 225 and he is human, so you should be able to as well..."

Aug 19, 2013 - 10:32pm

Sure, someone *can* die from working 3 days straight in the same way someone in their 20's *can* die from an unexpected brain anyeurism. My point being, just because he worked really really hard doesn't mean that it *should* have happened, or that BAML was working him like a Navy Seal or that assuming this was even the cause (which we don't know) that they somehow should have foreseen that this was a remote possibility.

I'm not trying to be insensitive by any means - any loss of life at this age is completely tragic, but some of the comparisons, accusations and assertions in this thread are over the line.

Aug 19, 2013 - 10:59pm

People are over simplifying the situation. We may never know what caused his death, but it is likely not just one factor, and there is most certainly not only one person to blame.

Assuming it is a heart attack like the rumors say, the truth is, it is very likely that lack of sleep and the work environment did contribute to his death. Further, it is also likely that stimulants played a role. As someone working in banking, I can tell you first hand the cut-throat and competitive nature of the work will lead you to do things that are terrible for your body. I have had several very long weeks (130+ hours) where I was near delirium and between the stress and caffiene was experiencing heart palpitations myself.

I am not necessarily saying the bank is to blame - because the truth is doing this job is our choice. However, some of the deflections on this thread are ridiculous. Just because special forces and people in the industry do work like this does not mean its safe. Even if the intern had an underlying heart condition, the job would have contributed and maybe even triggered the issue that occurred.

I think this should serve as a wake up call to everyone working in the industry (not that I think it will make much of a difference). Maybe drinking that extra redbull or popping that extra adderall and staying up for the back to back all nighter just isn't worth it.

Aug 20, 2013 - 1:35am

NYMonkey371:

Assuming it is a heart attack like the rumors say, the truth is, it is very likely that lack of sleep and the work environment did contribute to his death. Further, it is also likely that stimulants played a role. As someone working in banking, I can tell you first hand the cut-throat and competitive nature of the work will lead you to do things that are terrible for your body. I have had several very long weeks (130+ hours) where I was near delirium and between the stress and caffiene was experiencing heart palpitations myself.

I'm just going to say this: If you're working so many hours under the influence of enough stimulants to give you heart palpitations - and you're aware of that fact! - then you are undoubtedly a masochist:

1) Nothing you're doing could possibly be worth the amount of stress you're putting your body under

2) No human being would reasonably expect you to work under such conditions, even at the most heartless sweatshops on the street

3) You are in control of your life. Just because someone tells you to work until you are caffeinating your heart into submission doesn't mean that you should / have to. Know your own limitations, and don't let people dictate your decisions

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
  • 3
Aug 20, 2013 - 12:21am

Agreed. There must be a missing piece here. I have done 3 nights in a row. The power naps come in cabs, you pass out on the table, even in the bathroom. Not enough to kill you.

Aug 20, 2013 - 12:48am

marcellus_wallace:

Good on Patrick and his comments in this thread. I do not think WSO should allow random media outlooks to use it as a source, link, mention it till they have an official view on the topic at hand.

Sad nonetheless.

Agree. I thought it was pretty ridiculous how rampantly WSO was being cited by the media given the credibility of the information contributed by monkeys on here (no offense)... even more so because atleast many of the monkeys on here know of each other somewhat and can decipher the credible monkeys from the trolls.

Then you've got these hack journalists that have probably only seen WSO a handful of times trolling WSO and using it as a source. Completely irresponsible.

Array
  • 2
Aug 20, 2013 - 1:39am

All the articles validated with related bank/school. No one just went off by WSO.

Array
Aug 20, 2013 - 2:02am

abacab:

All the articles validated with related bank/school. No one just went off by WSO.

True, but they also speculated about cause of death by quoting posts from this thread.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 20, 2013 - 2:14am

It's things like that that remind you that working in Investment Banking, perhaps more so than any other graduate career is a struggle against Darwinian natural selection - only the fittest will survive....(the goldman IBD analyst class know what I'm talking about)

You know you've been working too hard when you stop dreaming about bottles of champagne and hordes of naked women, and start dreaming about conditional formatting and circular references.
Aug 20, 2013 - 3:19am

Zweihander:

It's things like that that remind you that working in Investment Banking, perhaps more so than any other graduate career is a struggle against Darwinian natural selection - only the fittest will survive....(the goldman IBD analyst class know what I'm talking about)

Aren't you a warrior.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
Best Response
Aug 20, 2013 - 5:24am

With respect to the people saying that it's "NEVER" expected to work 3 back to back all nighters, or that interns aren't expected to work all nighters--you guys might be too senior to notice it happening.

There is a team that sits near me at my shop that regularly has to pull back to back all nighters, because they have a terrible staffer and awful seniors to work for. They don't even go home for the shower anymore; they have a few sets of fresh clothes under the desk. Unsurprisingly, the majority quit post-bonus. HR is puzzled, but people are too afraid to tell the truth about how badly the workload for that team is managed.

As for interns, I was one not too long ago, and I and other interns most certainly worked all nighters. I didn't pull all nighters because I was some macho d-bag trying to look hardcore (there were some interns who did this...and did not get offers). It was because I had been given an asston of of work. I wanted an offer, and was too afraid to turn down work, so everyone kept slinging stuff at me, and I felt like I was obligated get everything done to prove that I deserved to be there. For the first few weeks, nobody above analyst level had any idea my all nighters were happening. Fortunately, a couple analysts took me aside, gave me a pep talk, explained to me that it was ok to take on less work, and then the next day they quietly let some seniors know what was going on. My workflow was a lot better from then on. I try to do the same now when I see an intern being overworked.

Fine, nobody dies purely from not getting enough sleep. He was probably on stimulants. It is unlikely that banks will change their working culture. Still, turning this into a pissing contest of "indignant bankers vs the evil banks vs bankers who know better" is pretty pointless, not to mention insensitive. We're still alive, and he's not, so let's not make it all about being right or wrong, or finding someone to blame, and just take a moment to sympathise with a young guy with who died early. Drugs or no drugs, he was probably pushing himself really hard, in a competitive environment, trying to secure an offer in a less than ideal job market. He probably just wanted to do well, going in to the last week of his internship. We've all been there.

To all the juniors out there--you need to communicate. There will always be asshole associates, VPs, and MDs that dump work on you without asking if you have bandwidth/capacity. There will always be unbelievably awful staffers with a completely irrational view of how much work one person can physically do. Don't feel like the only way to cope with this is to put your head down and power through. They do not care about you; you have to care about yourself. It's okay to politely speak up and lay out your current tasks and projects. If you do this, that piece of work that was "urgent," can become "okay, you can get to it that after you finish X task." At the very least, people will be aware of what's on your plate and adjust their expectations accordingly. People can even be surprisingly considerate, sometimes, once you let them know. This setup is really necessary. There is a guy in my class who is wildly abused with piles of work, simply because people now expect him to never turn down any work.

Also--avoid stimulants, they are not worth the health hazard. Even fit people can have heart palpitations from too many Red Bulls at one time. And, I don't care what illusions you have about bankers ballin' out with drugs, the only bankers I know who do recreational drugs regularly are idiots. You're already putting your body under enough stress. It doesn't make you look cool. Don't do it.

Aug 20, 2013 - 6:32am

With Respect,

Patrick @WallStreetOasis given the nature of the story and the earlier inference of substance use in some comments etc combined with the fact a national paper (a typically pretty sensationalist one at that) is using quotes from this site to cover the story.

Can't include the link but its the Daily Mail headline reading 'Investment bank intern, 21, on £45,000 worked 'until 6am for three nights in a row' before he was found dead in his London flat'

I think it is time to consider deleting the thread.

Aug 20, 2013 - 7:04am

It was this UK paper that brought me to WSO actually.
It was posted in the Daily Mail

Really sad.

UK - Economics Student Currently watching: Suits The Newsroom Game of Thrones
Aug 20, 2013 - 7:19am

"I have grown up in a family that expected me, in whatever respect, to excel in life. By implication, I felt somehow pressurized. However, I did not intend to belie my parents' expectations. Therefore, I have become a highly competitive and ambitious nature from early on. Already during my times in elementary school, I began playing soccer as well as tennis, I engaged in track and field athletics, and I started ski racing. Sometimes, I had a tendency to be overambitious, which resulted in severe injuries. With respect to my performance in school, I was striving for excellence and trying to be the best all the time."

seelio moritz-erhardt

Aug 20, 2013 - 8:39am

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"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
Aug 20, 2013 - 1:14pm

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"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 20, 2013 - 10:42am

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"I do not think that there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcomes almost everything, even nature."

Aug 20, 2013 - 11:02am

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"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
Aug 20, 2013 - 1:42pm

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