10/20/12

Moderator Note (Andy): Best of WSO - this post originally went up April 2012 and we thought it deserved to go back on the homepage for those who may have never seen it.

Fellow monkeys, I have a confession to make:

I am a hipster who wants to be an investment banker.

As I have lurked through these very boards, I've noticed that the hipster investment banker is a mythical creature that few of you have ever seen, or even spoken of. Some have argued that a few of WSO's most active members tend toward the obscure, but to call them hipsters would be a mode of extremeness that even the most trollish members of our community might not tolerate.

I am not, however, a full-blown hipster. I enjoy early-90s hip hop, the indie music scene in general, neo-noir movies, and intellectual conversations that always run in circles and never amount to much of anything. If available, I'll always choose an independent coffee shop instead of a Starbucks, not because I am a coffee snob (I don't even drink it often), but because the atmosphere is more appealing to me. I am infinitely more attracted to hipster girls than I am to sorority girls, and I wouldn't even utter "finance girls" in the same breath. I wear jeans that fit normally, casual dress shoes (think oxfords), and a non-plaid button down routinely, so I suppose that is another point of difference.

I'm a huge social liberal, but the classic hipster and I diverge on all issues economic, for good reasons (they're just wrong in the absolute sense). I'm not an Occupier, and I'm not a supporter of what liberal economic policies have become. I am also not here to start a political debate, so I'll leave that aspect of this post here.

Are there people like me out there in the finance world? If I had to pick my crowd, I'd much rather hang around a bunch of people who drink PBR and talk about random, sometimes geeky, shit than around your prototypical "models and bottles" investment bankers. Is this social lifestyle sustainable in IB (not a trick question, I know social lives go out the window anyway), or will the other folks just ostracize me as soon as they pin me as a closet hipster?

Comments (127)

4/2/12

In b4 IP asks you on a date.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

Financial Modeling

4/2/12

Yes, there are people like you out there : Flake

He's from Romania.

4/2/12

I think you have an oversimplified view of what it means to be a financier and you assume a lot of things about this archetypal "finance-bro" which I really have yet to observe in such a one-dimensional fashion.

4/2/12
Nouveau Richie:

I think you have an oversimplified view of what it means to be a financier and you assume a lot of things about this archetypal "finance-bro" which I really have yet to observe in such a one-dimensional fashion.

I would completely agree with you, and my ulterior-motive for this thread was to have someone dispute the fact that the "finance-bro" is really the dominant dude in the show.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/2/12
Abdel:

Yes, there are people like you out there : Flake

He's from Romania.

LMFAO u beat me to Flake. first thing that popped in my mind when i read the title.

4/2/12
oldmansacks:
Abdel:

Yes, there are people like you out there : Flake

He's from Romania.

LMFAO u beat me to Flake. first thing that popped in my mind when i read the title.

If you guys think Flake is a hipster, it only means you have absolutely no idea what a hipster is.

4/2/12
Nouveau Richie:
oldmansacks:
Abdel:

Yes, there are people like you out there : Flake

He's from Romania.

LMFAO u beat me to Flake. first thing that popped in my mind when i read the title.

If you guys think Flake is a hipster, it only means you have absolutely no idea what a hipster is.

o really, u4e told me that Flake was a gypsy

4/2/12

You certainly don't sound like a hipster, frankly.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if you described a good portion of the less visible IB folks, no?

"When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is."
- Oscar Wilde
"Seriously, psychology is for those with two x chromosomes."
- RagnarDanneskjold

4/2/12

You sound like you're in the middle of the continuum between hipster douche and frat bro douche. Congratulations, you might be about as close to normal as anyone in finance gets.

FWIW, most financiers don't constantly talk about models and bottles, only the ones who don't get it touched.

10/21/12
Ravenous:

You sound like you're in the middle of the continuum between hipster douche and frat bro douche. Congratulations, you might be about as close to normal as anyone in finance gets.

FWIW, most financiers don't constantly talk about models and bottles, only the ones who don't get it touched.

Zing.

This could be it, sweetheart.

4/2/12

Wanna be hipster + wanna be banker. Nothing wrong with that.

4/2/12

There are plenty of traditional geeks and nerds with whom you would might identify. The kind of kids who probably stayed up late arguing about Marcel Proust or something.

In the book The Quants, one of the big quant traders liked to play guitar in subway stations and things like that. A lot of smart people have very eclectic interests.

In fact, I'd say that someone who is actually cool in the traditional sense (good looking, funny) and in finance is relatively rare.

That said, divisions like "hipster" and "bro" are a lot less evident out of college. I sat next to and thus befriended people who were not at all like my friends in college.

4/2/12

Flake would be a homo before a hipster.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

4/2/12

I've always thought that if you call yourself a hipster, you're not really a hipster.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

4/2/12

i saw this really, really pretty hispter girl on the train the other day. I asked myself, "swagon, why does this perfectly hot - gorgeous, honestly - girl WANT to be part of some idiotic culture? Why doesn't she turn her swag on and be a normal hot girl?" She had the most outrageous 1960's glasses you can imagine and an outrageously conspicuous weird-ass poof in the front of her hair...swagon was saddened, but also confused because swagon thought the whole point of subculture is that you don't have what it takes to succeed in the mainstream so you join a bunch of losers in a subculture? But this girl was naturally beautiful? wtf?

4/2/12
swagon:

i saw this really, really pretty hispter girl on the train the other day. I asked myself, "swagon, why does this perfectly hot - gorgeous, honestly - girl WANT to be part of some idiotic culture? Why doesn't she turn her swag on and be a normal hot girl?" She had the most outrageous 1960's glasses you can imagine and an outrageously conspicuous weird-ass poof in the front of her hair...swagon was saddened, but also confused because swagon thought the whole point of subculture is that you don't have what it takes to succeed in the mainstream so you join a bunch of losers in a subculture? But this girl was naturally beautiful? wtf?

''tonyperkis: pics or it didn't happen''

4/2/12
Abdel:
swagon:

i saw this really, really pretty hispter girl on the train the other day. I asked myself, "swagon, why does this perfectly hot - gorgeous, honestly - girl WANT to be part of some idiotic culture? Why doesn't she turn her swag on and be a normal hot girl?" She had the most outrageous 1960's glasses you can imagine and an outrageously conspicuous weird-ass poof in the front of her hair...swagon was saddened, but also confused because swagon thought the whole point of subculture is that you don't have what it takes to succeed in the mainstream so you join a bunch of losers in a subculture? But this girl was naturally beautiful? wtf?

''tonyperkis: pics or it didn't happen''

I don't take pics of people on the subway. But really, this girl was very, very pretty.

4/2/12
swagon:
Abdel:
swagon:

i saw this really, really pretty hispter girl on the train the other day. I asked myself, "swagon, why does this perfectly hot - gorgeous, honestly - girl WANT to be part of some idiotic culture? Why doesn't she turn her swag on and be a normal hot girl?" She had the most outrageous 1960's glasses you can imagine and an outrageously conspicuous weird-ass poof in the front of her hair...swagon was saddened, but also confused because swagon thought the whole point of subculture is that you don't have what it takes to succeed in the mainstream so you join a bunch of losers in a subculture? But this girl was naturally beautiful? wtf?

''tonyperkis: pics or it didn't happen''

I don't take pics of people on the subway. But really, this girl was very, very pretty.

''tonyperkis: so.....it didn't happen?''

4/2/12
swagon:

i saw this really, really pretty hispter girl on the train the other day. I asked myself, "swagon, why does this perfectly hot - gorgeous, honestly - girl WANT to be part of some idiotic culture? Why doesn't she turn her swag on and be a normal hot girl?" She had the most outrageous 1960's glasses you can imagine and an outrageously conspicuous weird-ass poof in the front of her hair...swagon was saddened, but also confused because swagon thought the whole point of subculture is that you don't have what it takes to succeed in the mainstream so you join a bunch of losers in a subculture? But this girl was naturally beautiful? wtf?

Rollin around with Daddys Credit Card = 50% of dumbass beautiful hipster girls in the world #fact

4/2/12
wallstreetballa:
swagon:

i saw this really, really pretty hispter girl on the train the other day. I asked myself, "swagon, why does this perfectly hot - gorgeous, honestly - girl WANT to be part of some idiotic culture? Why doesn't she turn her swag on and be a normal hot girl?" She had the most outrageous 1960's glasses you can imagine and an outrageously conspicuous weird-ass poof in the front of her hair...swagon was saddened, but also confused because swagon thought the whole point of subculture is that you don't have what it takes to succeed in the mainstream so you join a bunch of losers in a subculture? But this girl was naturally beautiful? wtf?

Rollin around with Daddys Credit Card = 50% of dumbass beautiful hipster girls in the world #fact

No doubt. But most hipster girls are not hot, am I right? As in, there's a lower proportion of hot hipster girls than in a similar female age/income bracket, right? I honestly haven't seen enough to make a definitive judgement, but that's what logic tells me. Joining the hipster crowd is a way for a fugly chick to fit in somewhere, but why would a hot chick want to make herself look retarded???

4/2/12

Jeans that fit normally?!? Then no worries, you're no hipster.

4/2/12
chris_g:

Jeans that fit normally?!? Then no worries, you're no hipster.

true dat. they always wearin them baggy-ass jeans hangin below they butt wit they undawear stickin out. mayne, pull up yo pants son cause yo pants on tha ground! damn hispterz!!

4/2/12

I enjoy early-90s hip hop, the indie music scene in general, neo-noir movies, and intellectual conversations that always run in circles and never amount to much of anything.

You sound like a pretentious pseudo-intellectual. I wouldn't want to work next to you for 90hrs/wk.
4/2/12
john2:

I enjoy early-90s hip hop, the indie music scene in general, neo-noir movies, and intellectual conversations that always run in circles and never amount to much of anything.

You sound like a pretentious pseudo-intellectual. I wouldn't want to work next to you for 90hrs/wk.

Actually you would, I have an outrageous amount of fun at work and generally don't take myself too seriously. I guess I do like a lot of "pseudo-intellectual" stuff, and I'm not one to talk about NCAA football 24/7 (or at all basically), but I don't think I'm all that bad of a co-worker.

<3

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/3/12

"I did it for me...I liked it...I was good at it. And I was really... I was alive."

4/2/12
john2:

I enjoy early-90s hip hop, the indie music scene in general, neo-noir movies, and intellectual conversations that always run in circles and never amount to much of anything.

You sound like a pretentious pseudo-intellectual. I wouldn't want to work next to you for 90hrs/wk.

This

4/6/12
john2:

I enjoy early-90s hip hop, the indie music scene in general, neo-noir movies, and intellectual conversations that always run in circles and never amount to much of anything.

You sound like a pretentious pseudo-intellectual. I wouldn't want to work next to you for 90hrs/wk.

this.

OP i hate you and don't even know you.

He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.

4/2/12

Man. I hate hipsters. One of my best friends is a hipster and I rag on him all the time about it.

I think Wolverine's right about hipsters not calling themselves hipsters, though. Unless... you're such a hipster that you're too cool for the regular hipster crowd, so you call yourself a hipster to differentiate yourself, which makes you even more hipster, which... wait, what

4/2/12
Angus Macgyver:

Man. I hate hipsters. One of my best friends is a hipster

interesting

4/3/12
swagon:
Angus Macgyver:

Man. I hate hipsters. One of my best friends is a hipster

interesting

I know, right.

4/2/12

first reaction upon reading the subject line: lolwtfwhyareyouhereagain

4/3/12
she_monkey:

first reaction upon reading the subject line: lolwtfwhyareyouhereagain

^^^

Thread fail XD

Get busy living

4/2/12

This post blew the fuck up

4/3/12

Shave that beard. Make sure the Kings of Leon doesn't put you to sleep when you're in the office late at night... and have a suit that isn't plaid and linen. Then you may or may not be fine.

4/3/12
4/3/12

You don't sound like a hipster; you just sound like a pretentious douche.

4/4/12
optimus_prime:

You don't sound like a hipster; you just sound like a pretentious douche.

He might fit in nicely at some shops after all.

Financial Modeling

4/3/12

What cut of Urban Outfitters suits do you recommend?

"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."
-F. Scott Fitzgerald

4/3/12

hipsters scares me

4/3/12
ST Monkey:

hipsters scares me

They shouldn't, they're humongous pussies. Unless you're terrified of being looked at condescendingly, you have nothing to fear.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

4/3/12

If you take a job in banking, you'll still be yourself. Wearing a suit to work doesn't change your identity. Stop being so petty - your entire post is about what kinds of brands you prefer and what kind of clothes you wear. Those are meaningless factors when you are considering banking as a career. Your definition of investment bankers seems to be quite shallow.

There is one hipster on my floor and he's not over the top. But super skinny pants and dress shirts with the sleeves rolled up above his elbows. He works in IT.

Also a question: You said you are a hawk in the workplace. How do you know this given you haven't likely ever had a white collar job before? Or are you just making shit up?

4/3/12
gamenumbers:

Also a question: You said you are a hawk in the workplace. How do you know this given you haven't likely ever had a white collar job before? Or are you just making shit up?

I've been out of school for quite a while and have held a white collar job, just not in finance.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/3/12

A very presumptuous post.

Contrary to what CNN has told you about the banker archetype, it is a career full of different people.

My first supervisor was a brainy Welsh MILF by the name of Molly. Molly was gregarious & fun-loving. Life of the party & overall great gal. But Molly could never be found outside office hours. Molly had a terrible secret you see....Warhammer 40k!

And there's Jeff Simpson and his 13 dogs.
Kuvani Gupta, the hippy, and her endless collection of B&W arty movies & painting hobby.
David Chang and his vitamin-popping yoga/health fetish.
[all not real names but close enough....God I hope you guys arent on WSO]

4/3/12
SaucyBacon85:

A very presumptuous post.

Contrary to what CNN has told you about the banker archetype, it is a career full of different people.

My first supervisor was a brainy Welsh MILF by the name of Molly. Molly was gregarious & fun-loving. Life of the party & overall great gal. But Molly could never be found outside office hours. Molly had a terrible secret you see....Warhammer 40k!

And there's Jeff Simpson and his 13 dogs.
Kuvani Gupta, the hippy, and her endless collection of B&W arty movies & painting hobby.
David Chang and his vitamin-popping yoga/health fetish.
[all not real names but close enough....God I hope you guys arent on WSO]

yeah we r both on WSO reading ur post rite now. i am Kuvani, my real name as u know is Kuvanya, and Molly is Mandy...we just read ur post. u r n trouble, sux 4 u

4/3/12
swagon:
SaucyBacon85:

A very presumptuous post.

Contrary to what CNN has told you about the banker archetype, it is a career full of different people.

My first supervisor was a brainy Welsh MILF by the name of Molly. Molly was gregarious & fun-loving. Life of the party & overall great gal. But Molly could never be found outside office hours. Molly had a terrible secret you see....Warhammer 40k!

And there's Jeff Simpson and his 13 dogs.
Kuvani Gupta, the hippy, and her endless collection of B&W arty movies & painting hobby.
David Chang and his vitamin-popping yoga/health fetish.
[all not real names but close enough....God I hope you guys arent on WSO]

yeah we r both on WSO reading ur post rite now. i am Kuvani, my real name as u know is Kuvanya, and Molly is Mandy...we just read ur post. u r n trouble, sux 4 u

Ex-employer but jeez dude...you almost got one of the names correct & had me going for a second there.

4/3/12

i remember seeing a UK recruiting video for one of th BB's a few years ago. One of their star employees had a "Flock of Seagulls" haircut.. let that be inspiration enough

4/3/12
technoviking:

i remember seeing a UK recruiting video for one of th BB's a few years ago. One of their star employees had a "Flock of Seagulls" haircut.. let that be inspiration enough

Funny you mention this, I just saw Mike Score of the Flock of Seagulls two weekends ago and, I am sorry to tell you this, but he no longer has that haircut.... in fact he is now a middle-aged Bald Fat guy who looks like someone's uncle...

Mike Score - Flock of Seagulls on Flickr

As to OP's question, if you are a star producer then you can get away with "eccentric" fashion sense, hair style etc. Also folks on the buy side tend to have much more relaxed dress code in general. If you are making money for the firm, then nobody cares if you come in flannel shirt, pajama pants and fluffy bunny flip flops.

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.

4/3/12

Seeing as hipsters don't believe in personal hygiene, I'm not sure anyone would want to hang with you in the workplace.

4/3/12

You aren't really hipster, but I can see compared to frat lax-bro's you would be. I am also not really "hipster," but stereotypical sorostitutes might label me as such. I think you would be surprised at how many share our sensibilities...basically we are the in-between of being complete hipster douches (looking like homeless people) and the models-and-bottles assholes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TOHhLYTUps

4/3/12
anaismalcolm:

You aren't really hipster, but I can see compared to frat lax-bro's you would be. I am also not really "hipster," but stereotypical sorostitutes might label me as such. I think you would be surprised at how many share our sensibilities...basically we are the in-between of being complete hipster douches (looking like homeless people) and the models-and-bottles assholes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TOHhLYTUps

Haha great video, and I think you and I are pretty much on the same page in a lot of ways.

For the record, I wasn't operating under the assumption that everyone in banking is a lax-bro, it's partly funny to think about whether or not it's true, and partly funny because it's mostly untrue. Most of my friends at BBs are just driven people who want to get somewhere in life, and don't really belong to one sub-culture or another.

But I'll thicken the plot a little bit: I'm located in the Southeast (not NYC, where I imagine the scene is a lot more diverse). This might be a game-changer.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/3/12
Vontropnats:
anaismalcolm:

You aren't really hipster, but I can see compared to frat lax-bro's you would be. I am also not really "hipster," but stereotypical sorostitutes might label me as such. I think you would be surprised at how many share our sensibilities...basically we are the in-between of being complete hipster douches (looking like homeless people) and the models-and-bottles assholes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TOHhLYTUps

Haha great video, and I think you and I are pretty much on the same page in a lot of ways.

For the record, I wasn't operating under the assumption that everyone in banking is a lax-bro, it's partly funny to think about whether or not it's true, and partly funny because it's mostly untrue. Most of my friends at BBs are just driven people who want to get somewhere in life, and don't really belong to one sub-culture or another.

But I'll thicken the plot a little bit: I'm located in the Southeast (not NYC, where I imagine the scene is a lot more diverse). This might be a game-changer.

I am actually from the Southeast, but now in NYC. And for someone mentioning Toms, I totally wear those on the subway before work...but then change into Louboutin's.

4/3/12

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."

4/3/12

warhammer 40k ftw

but on the real if ur a hipster we wont be seen together @ fuqua. ill disacknowledge your existence even more so than the typical MBA does to the MMS there :|

4/3/12

Short, I'm not a tried and true hipster man! I wouldn't be caught dead in vintage Levi's, Tom's shoes, with unkempt hair.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/3/12
Vontropnats:

Short, I'm not a tried and true hipster man! I wouldn't be caught dead in vintage Levi's, Tom's shoes, with unkempt hair.

Tom's are some of the most comfortable shoes known to man...granted I only wear the boots but still don't bash Tom's just cause you like your indie rock and hole in the wall coffee shops..

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

4/3/12

Why do you "want to hang around people who drink PBR"? I am not not saying I don't drink it or that I have an issue with those that do. I just find that amazing..."this guy/girl seems really cool but whoa hold on one second they're drinking ______ beer! what a loser". I just don't get it. I have friends who have shitty taste in beer, I really only care about what beer I like. Also, jeans that look like they would fit a little girl don't fit "normally" you fucking try hard.

Who you calling a psycho?!?!

4/3/12

You sound like a doucher. You attempt to paint yourself as some sort of bohemian intellectual but you fail at it miserably. Why do u give a shit what other people will think? Do you really think you'll be the only person at your workplace that likes to engage in intellectual discussions or the only one w eclectic interests?

Do what makes you happy bro. I like fucking sorority girls, day parties, jerseys and Jordan's , fitted snap backs, and everything else you would prolly associate w the "bro" culture. Doesn't mean I don't spend half my time on food blogs, reading academic journals for fun, cooking, or hanging in coffee shops.

"Life all comes down to a few moments. This is one of them." - Bud Fox

4/3/12

If you only drink PBR, you're trying too hard. It's bland beer for a bland personality. Try something with a little bit more "hoppssss".

Don't be a douche, don't be a bro, don't be a hipster. Be yourself and do a ton of different things. And please do not join a fixed gear bicylce crew.

4/3/12

There's some hot hipsters serving me my daily americano at starbucks every morning

4/3/12

unfortunately I believe that this "models and bottles" banker stereotype is the minority that those not yet in the profession (90% of this board) believe they will soon be.

You'll be fine man, if youre good at what you do and people like you then that's all you should worry about.

4/3/12

Who the heck cares? Really dude.. if you can put on your game face and act like a professional and get stuff done... why do you really care what you do after work? You have the choice of how you spend your time outside the workplace.. and showing up after work with people not in your 'culture' for an hour or two isn't going to kill you... even if they are a 'bro'.

4/3/12

No one cares. Do your job, do it well and don't dress in anyway that will make you stand out negatively and it won't matter.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

4/3/12

lol I never read the whole post until now... funny how you even mention that you/d like to hang around people who drink pbr... why even mention the brand of beer? my god. I can name 100 better beers than PBR. All else equal, given the choice between friends who drink Guiness/Killians/St. Paulis Girl/etc. or PBR, I'd have to sniff A LOT of paint before I choose the guys with PBR.

If you call yourself a hipster and honestly have "-drink PBR" on your criteria of who you want to hang out with, you're probably so confused about yourself it's sad. I'd rather hang out with a "models and bottles" type of guy who goes completely over the top as long as he knows that that's who he is than some wannabe hipster who tries too hard. You're not a hipster, you're just trying too hard to label yourself.

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/BK1/

hipsters suck dick

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

4/3/12

You sound like a social liberal/fiscal conservative...just like most young people on Wall Street. As for your taste in music? I don't care what my friends listen to. I like both independent and studio music. Most people do.

I think you are too tied up in identity. Nobody really cares what you do, so long as it doesn't bug them...I mean, a fair portion of Wall St. borders on being clinically narcissistic, and the rest are too tired/stressed/busy to care.

4/4/12

I beat up hipsters with my twig, when I'm not shooting top cheese of course.

4/4/12

I was going to tell you that you were a day late on your April Fools post, but then I realized you probably are a real hipster since you just wrote a 2,000 word essay all about yourself. Did you also post it to the 17 blogs you write?

1/30/15

k

4/4/12

Alfred Jones, the founder of the world's first hedge fund, was a hipster journalist sociologist. He was doing long-short equity before it was cool.

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.

1/30/15

I agree, to many wannabes

1/30/15

There's value to knowing basic mistakes to avoid right as you enter (cufflinks as an intern kind of stuff). After that, to each his own, you decide how gunner/fratty/hipster you want to and can get away with being given your office culture.

1/30/15

meabric:
There's value to knowing basic mistakes to avoid right as you enter (cufflinks as an intern kind of stuff)

Maybe I'm not in the same culture, but if I have a rockstar SA who wears cufflinks vs. a moron SA who wears a navy/charcoal suit, with a light blue/white shirt with button cuffs, a conservative tie, black lace ups, etc. every day, the rockstar is going win every time. Why do I care if a SA wears cufflinks?

As OP mentioned, once you're on the job, the only thing people care about is if you can do your job or not.

1/30/15

milehigh:
meabric:
There's value to knowing basic mistakes to avoid right as you enter (cufflinks as an intern kind of stuff)

Maybe I'm not in the same culture, but if I have a rockstar SA who wears cufflinks vs. a moron SA who wears a navy/charcoal suit, with a light blue/white shirt with button cuffs, a conservative tie, black lace ups, etc. every day, the rockstar is going win every time. Why do I care if a SA wears cufflinks?

As OP mentioned, once you're on the job, the only thing people care about is if you can do your job or not.

(The rockstar would likely know enough to not wear overly flashy shit unless he could back it up.)

Also, cufflinks aren't a very big deal.

1/30/15

How dare some little punk ass kid try to come into the office dressing nice, the fucking nerve of people...Everyone knows interns should wear potato sacks to work.

1/30/15

I don't get the post. So you used to be a hipster, but now since you're a corporate drone, it doesn't matter what you used to be?

Go life, go go life!

1/30/15

What about the ladies? I've always wondered about that. I feel females would take these things to a whole new level... But then again, when you're lacking sleep, nothing really matters.

1/30/15

Meh

4/4/12

oh wow anaismalcolm still reads/posts lol

Best Response
1/30/15

Finance Hipsters (Originally Posted: 11/18/2012)

Morning Monkeys!

I'd like to take a moment to discuss the growing multitude of "finance hipsters" and why they annoy the crap out of me. No, I'm not talking about hipsters who happen to work in finance, I'm talking about all these bankers who love to hate on the more ubiquitous methodologies in finance like CAPM (or portfolio theory in general) and DCF models. You all know what I'm talking about, in fact, at some point, you (or someone you know) has probably had this conversation:

Banker #1:

I'm going to get the cost of equity using CAPM and then get the intrinsic value from my DCF model.

Banker #2:

Oh, you still use CAPM and DCF? Man, that's so declasse, you know the assumptions they use, right? You should use [insert any obscure, probably firm specific model], it's way better.

Replace "the cost of equity using CAPM" and "the intrinsic value from my DCF model" with "Modest Mouse's new CD" or "non-organic milk" and you have the quintessential hipster conversation.

Are they perfect models? No, far from it, and "Banker #2" is right about the assumptions. But, both were huge leaps forward in analysis and deserve a bit more credit. To really appreciate this, it's important to understand what came before them:

Dow Theory: The predecessor to modern technical analysis was developed from 255 editorials written by Charles Dow. Imagine developing a financial theory from 255 of Paul Krugman's editorials, it would consist entirely of methods to purchase assets that reliably vote democrat and numerous footnotes on the awesomeness of inflation. Luckily, Charles Dow was a pretty smart guy so the resulting theory isn't complete and utter gibberish, but some of the 6 tenets of Dow Theory would strike most of you as pretty ridiculous (e.g. The Market has Three Movements.)

Theory of Investment Value: Finally, after figuring out that looking at candlestick charts leaves something to be desired, John Burr Williams thought, "Hey, maybe if we look at a company's cash flow or dividends, we'll be more readily able to determine a stock's intrinsic value." This is when Fundamental Analysis was truly born and with it, the dividend discount model and the DCF model.

Portfolio Theory: While actually checking to see if a company made any money, then buying said stock was a massive improvement, the concept of "diversifying risk" was still absent. This is where portfolio theory truly formalized the concept of a "diversified portfolio". Not to suggest that previously everyone had only one stock in their portfolio, or that the general concept was foreign to a professional analyst, but there wasn't a generally accepted formulation for HOW to diversify. This is how Markowitz's portfolio theory brought us into the modern world of stock analysis, by taking the next jump to include a formalization of risk and portfolio diversification.

So, the lesson here is, while models have improved dramatically in terms of their ability to model reality with more reasonable assumptions, they're still (more or less) innovations on portfolio theory and fundamental analysis (one could argue that the Black-Scholes option pricing model was an equally impressive leap, but I'd rather not muddle up my own argument.) This is precisely why every finance undergrad is forced to learn all of these seemingly outdated models.

Stop hating.

tl;dr - DCF models, fundamental analysis, and portfolio theory are awesome and a similar leap forward in how we analyze assets has yet to come about. Stop hating.

"My caddie's chauffeur informs me that a bank is a place where people put money that isn't properly invested."

1/30/15

I lol'd...

"That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

1/30/15

Yes. They are awesome I concur :)

1/30/15

I don't get it...you think it's annoying that people have come up with better ways of doing things and are touting their ways?

1/30/15
SirTradesaLot:

I don't get it...you think it's annoying that people have come up with better ways of doing things and are touting their ways?

No, not at all. In fact I'm a huge fan of people coming up with new things and subsequently touting their new and improved methods. What's annoying is when people come up with absolutely nothing but still complain about the assumptions and methods of others. For example:

"I've found that [insert assumption] doesn't represent reality in an empirically meaningful way, so I've developed [insert new method] that solves the problem" = Awesome and constructive.

"The assumptions that are used in [insert model/methodology] don't represent reality, so obviously everyone who uses [previously inserted model/methodology] is an idiot because they so obviously don't realize how useless and limited [previously inserted model/methodology] is" = Annoying and makes me hope the author gets ambushed by a pack of squirrels.

"My caddie's chauffeur informs me that a bank is a place where people put money that isn't properly invested."

1/30/15
mikesswimn:
SirTradesaLot:

I don't get it...you think it's annoying that people have come up with better ways of doing things and are touting their ways?

No, not at all. In fact I'm a huge fan of people coming up with new things and subsequently touting their new and improved methods. What's annoying is when people come up with absolutely nothing but still complain about the assumptions and methods of others. For example:

"I've found that [insert assumption] doesn't represent reality in an empirically meaningful way, so I've developed [insert new method] that solves the problem" = Awesome and constructive.

"The assumptions that are used in [insert model/methodology] don't represent reality, so obviously everyone who uses [previously inserted model/methodology] is an idiot because they so obviously don't realize how useless and limited [previously inserted model/methodology] is" = Annoying and makes me hope the author gets ambushed by a pack of squirrels.

Got it, thanks.

1/30/15

My take is that the models were a stepping stone to multifactor models ( which have been proven to work so long as there are no pattern breaks i.e. 2008 crash) and that is why they are studied, its like studying Plato or Socrates its part of the classic foundation of Finance Theory.

Then the industry (i.e. bankers) just because it needs a common method to communicate to clients adopted the CAPM model, it does not mean its the best one, think blue-ray vs. HD DVD, its just the one that everyone uses, hence it is more practical.

For the sake of accuracy a well greased multifactor model should effectively get a better cost of capital(if its properly built), nonetheless most of those models are proprietary and hence any one not familiar with the model would have a steep learning curve in order to understand how the discount rate was arrived at WHICH IS KEY WHEN COMMUNICATING THE VALUE OF A COMPANY.

So in summary:

For Bankers or Valuators: Using CAPM is part of the industry language, so I would not frown upon it, as valuations can be tweaked by other drivers like growth, margin %, etc. to arrive at the right number for the company.

For Investors: If you use CAPM you are seriously delirious as we all know its not accurate, and if you base of an investment decision on a piece of knowledge that you beforehand know is inaccurate, guess what?! YOU ARE AN IRRESPONSIBLE INVESTOR!!

just my $0.02

1/30/15

@Suchislife

This is really interesting. I'm studying asset pricing right now, and I agree with how you think CAPM was a stepping stone to the multi factor model. Could you shed some light on your view of the arbitrage pricing theory and it's relevance in the real world? (If you have knowledge of it) From what I have learnt the imposition of arbitrage framework on the multi-factor model underpins it's modern use. By eliminating the systematic and systematic risk, the inclusion of variables outside the realm of measure like macro-events provides a linear relationship between these factors and the rate of return on an asset. I'm interested in how applicable this is in the real world. Does it help reveal patterns between asset pricing?

1/30/15
suchislife:

My take is that the models were a stepping stone to multifactor models ( which have been proven to work so long as there are no pattern breaks i.e. 2008 crash) and that is why they are studied, its like studying Plato or Socrates its part of the classic foundation of Finance Theory.

<

p>Then the industry (i.e. bankers) just because it needs a common method to communicate.

A lot of those old models are about to become obsolete. I'm hesitant to name exact sources, but there's some pretty interesting developments in the area of capital flow analysis. One forecaster used it to predict 2008 to within a few weeks, over a decade ahead of time.

1/30/15

OMG is CAPM important? I totally just ignored it in my Financial Economics assignment. I thought half of this stuff was crap. Aghhhh

1/30/15

Out of curiosity...how long does it generally take for new finance concepts from Universities to find there way onto the floors of an IB?

1/30/15
Ovechkin08:

Out of curiosity...how long does it generally take for new finance concepts from Universities to find there way onto the floors of an IB?

That's a really good question (hopefully someone has a better answer than the one I'm about to give.) The research I read tends to be pretty math heavy, which I'm assuming is typical (this could be totally wrong.) So for a quant shop with plenty of mathematicians and programmers, I'd imagine it would be pretty quick, if not in reverse (i.e. the research starts at the quant shop then is formalized by academia.) But if you were involved in deals which require a lot more flexibility from day to day (a trading machine can be run for quite a while, but a pitchbook is probably only good for the one client) it probably takes years, if not longer.

Just a guess, though.

"My caddie's chauffeur informs me that a bank is a place where people put money that isn't properly invested."

1/30/15
Ovechkin08:

Out of curiosity...how long does it generally take for new finance concepts from Universities to find there way onto the floors of an IB?

Never. I remember I learned this ultra theoretical LBO analysis method senior year of college (supposedly was on the bleeding edge of academic corporate finance). After having been in IB and PE for a few years, I can safely say that no one on the planet (outside of academia) uses that analysis or anything other than a straight sources and uses / IRR / multiple of capital model to analyze the financial impact of an LBO.

Yes, banks do use DCFs to fill pitch books and satisfy accountants and lawyers for reporting purposes, but no one is actually going to write a check based on a DCF.

The reason none of the theory coming out of academia makes it to the real world is because unlike actual hard sciences, corporate finance and economics hypotheses cannot really be tested so most "theories" are just BS speculation.

And if you are ever left wondering what your cost of equity should be, here it is: the percentage by which you want to grow your money.

1/30/15
labanker:
Ovechkin08:

Out of curiosity...how long does it generally take for new finance concepts from Universities to find there way onto the floors of an IB?

And if you are ever left wondering what your cost of equity should be, here it is: the percentage by which you want to grow your money.

AMEN!

1/30/15
Ovechkin08:

Out of curiosity...how long does it generally take for new finance concepts from Universities to find there way onto the floors of an IB?

academic finance is largely mental masturbation, no practioners really cares to be frank.

1/30/15

Bros you've got this all mixed up. A model like CAPM is vintage given its from the 60s, and not only that but it's also ironic because its usefulness is so limited and yet so much money is on the line. Then again all the banker bros worship it so it's also in the finance mainstream. What's a finance hipster to do when something is simultaneously vintage, ironic, mainstream and passe? You couldn't have liked CAPM before it was cool because you weren't even born yet! So that's off the table. Man, let me tell you, it is not easy being a finance hipster.

1/30/15
Going Concern:

Bros you've got this all mixed up. A model like CAPM is vintage given its from the 60s, and not only that but it's also ironic because its usefulness is so limited and yet so much money is on the line. Then again all the banker bros worship it so it's also in the finance mainstream. What's a finance hipster to do when something is simultaneously vintage, ironic, mainstream and passe? You couldn't have liked CAPM before it was cool because you weren't even born yet! So that's off the table. Man, let me tell you, it is not easy being a finance hipster.

Lol! Epic.

"My caddie's chauffeur informs me that a bank is a place where people put money that isn't properly invested."

1/30/15

I just use the classic "whichever stock price is higher is more expensive" theory. Am I missing something here?

1/30/15

@ Oscar_Chow

Well I'm pretty rusty on the subject but I'll give it a shot (last time I studied finance theory was in 2011 when I was wrapping up the CFA, have been working in PE where all of this is mostly irrelevant to my day).

Well my take is that first of all there is no defined model for APT and hence the factors and betas are to be defined by the actual statistical analysis of the user. Assuming you have a model built on APT, which mostly looks at system wide macro factors, as long as the factors you incorporate in the model in the case of APT are statistically relevant factors which improve the correlation this should positively impact the accuracy of your model, and the more accurate your model is the better it will be on achieving the right cost of equity, and hence it will be better for making investment decisions. (This model definitely appears more relevant to the real world than CAPM, you could argue that CAPM is a subset of APT)

On the other hand there are other fundamental statistically relevant factors which are not necessarily macro which affect company values, examples of such factors are stock liquidity, firm size, reporting quality, etc. As you built your model thought the statistical analysis of certain factors you will want to incorporate the number of statistical factors which positively improve your correlations, whether they are macro, or fundamental.

If I'm not mistaken this is what happens in the real world, you build your model across a whole host of factors and betas (could be 2 could be 100 betas) trough statistical analysis in order to improve correlations and the accuracy of your model (always looking out for statistical traps, that's another conversation).

It is important to note that any pricing model developed through statistical analysis will be valid only until the patterns holds, if there is a structural break (example: oil stops being used and nuclear power becomes the power of choice, your statistical model will not likely hold) your model will break down and it will become useless (for a period of time at least) hence models are always constantly evolving 24/7 as the world and the economy evolves and that is why there will never be one model for anything as it is a constantly evolving analysis which incorporates all of the applicable factors for today!

DISCLAIMER: SOMEONE IN Asset Management PLEASE CHIME IN, TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT MISTAKEN, AS I AM VERY RUSTY AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE I DON'T GIVE BAD ADVICE! (I APOLOGIZE AHEAD FOR ANY MISTAKES, IT'S BEEN A WHILE) What a rant....

1/30/15
suchislife:

@ Oscar_Chow

Well I'm pretty rusty on the subject but I'll give it a shot (last time I studied finance theory was in 2011 when I was wrapping up the CFA, have been working in PE where all of this is mostly irrelevant to my day).

Well my take is that first of all there is no defined model for APT and hence the factors and betas are to be defined by the actual statistical analysis of the user. Assuming you have a model built on APT, which mostly looks at system wide macro factors, as long as the factors you incorporate in the model in the case of APT are statistically relevant factors which improve the correlation this should positively impact the accuracy of your model, and the more accurate your model is the better it will be on achieving the right cost of equity, and hence it will be better for making investment decisions. (This model definitely appears more relevant to the real world than CAPM, you could argue that CAPM is a subset of APT)

On the other hand there are other fundamental statistically relevant factors which are not necessarily macro which affect company values, examples of such factors are stock liquidity, firm size, reporting quality, etc. As you built your model thought the statistical analysis of certain factors you will want to incorporate the number of statistical factors which positively improve your correlations, whether they are macro, or fundamental.

If I'm not mistaken this is what happens in the real world, you build your model across a whole host of factors and betas (could be 2 could be 100 betas) trough statistical analysis in order to improve correlations and the accuracy of your model (always looking out for statistical traps, that's another conversation).

It is important to note that any pricing model developed through statistical analysis will be valid only until the patterns holds, if there is a structural break (example: oil stops being used and nuclear power becomes the power of choice, your statistical model will not likely hold) your model will break down and it will become useless (for a period of time at least) hence models are always constantly evolving 24/7 as the world and the economy evolves and that is why there will never be one model for anything as it is a constantly evolving analysis which incorporates all of the applicable factors for today!

DISCLAIMER: SOMEONE IN Asset Management PLEASE CHIME IN, TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT MISTAKEN, AS I AM VERY RUSTY AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE I DON'T GIVE BAD ADVICE! (I APOLOGIZE AHEAD FOR ANY MISTAKES, IT'S BEEN A WHILE) What a rant....

Thanks a lot for the reply, refreshing to hear real life applications instead of theory!

1/30/15

How did the hipster drown?

It went ice skating before it was cool.

1/30/15
BTbanker:

How did the hipster drown?

It went ice skating before it was cool.

Ha!!

How many hipsters does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

It's a really obscure number, you probably don't know about it yet.

"My caddie's chauffeur informs me that a bank is a place where people put money that isn't properly invested."

1/30/15

personal favorite: How much does a hipster weigh?

An instagram

1/30/15

Why are farmers better than Hipsters?
Farmers can go a day without their Pitchfork.

What happens when a Hipster falls?
They Tumblr.

1/30/15

Who the hell still uses CAPM or DCF to value a company? Professional knife catchers that had AAPL at $1000 PT and bought from $700 to $525? Or professional value investors that bought HP from $25 all the way to $13?

Even value shops' water cooler talks are spoken in P/E or P/S.

Your model and valuation is only as accurate as your forward prediction of the company.

1/30/15

Your scenario typifies very well the common-place arguments over financial models. Because, in your example, both sides are competing for the gold in the special olympics.

These arguments are merely components of the hollow confidence game required from this part of the industry.

None of you actually know what you're talking about. None of this is value added.

1/30/15
zacharydavid:

None of you actually know what you're talking about. None of this is value added.

how did you calculate the risk premium to reach that conclusion?

1/30/15
Febreeze:
zacharydavid:

None of you actually know what you're talking about. None of this is value added.

how did you calculate the risk premium to reach that conclusion?

I let it be zero and target minimum variance. Outperformance achieved.

1/30/15

i think the more important topic here is actually what about finance hipsters? i mean, who the fuck tries to pull off a skinny tie at a BB amirite?

Remember, once you're inside you're on your own.
Oh, you mean I can't count on you?
No.
Good!

1/30/15

Ha ha.. 'How much does a hipster weigh? An instagram' This is good stuff!

4/4/12

Well vontropnats, it seems you've fallen under the label of hipster by accident, in my opinion. Hipster has become a catch all label for people who may actually enjoy being cultured, and partaking in culture. At another time in history, the label was referred to as the "renaissance man" or "woman", as it were. No Mr. Vontropnats, I am not saying you are not a hipster by any means, because you can give yourself any label you choose. What I do know is that I myself, as a complete finance nerd, also enjoy many things "hipsterish". I am not a social liberal, indeed, I'm about as conservative as they come. And yet, I've always gravitated towards indie music, random philosophical conversations, and non-chain coffee shops. The hipster chick, with her flannel and purposefully large, non-prescription spectacles delights and elates my senses. One might even say I'm a conservative hipster, though the term may seem paradoxic. And yet, and yet, to be cultured, and to enjoy partaking in culture, is to me the one of the most satisfying things.

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

4/4/12
WreckEmFinance:

Well vontropnats, it seems you've fallen under the label of hipster by accident, in my opinion. Hipster has become a catch all label for people who may actually enjoy being cultured, and partaking in culture. At another time in history, the label was referred to as the "renaissance man" or "woman", as it were. No Mr. Vontropnats, I am not saying you are not a hipster by any means, because you can give yourself any label you choose. What I do know is that I myself, as a complete finance nerd, also enjoy many things "hipsterish". I am not a social liberal, indeed, I'm about as conservative as they come. And yet, I've always gravitated towards indie music, random philosophical conversations, and non-chain coffee shops. The hipster chick, with her flannel and purposefully large, non-prescription spectacles delights and elates my senses. One might even say I'm a conservative hipster, though the term may seem paradoxic. And yet, and yet, to be cultured, and to enjoy partaking in culture, is to me the one of the most satisfying things.

QFT /thread

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/6/12
WreckEmFinance:

Well vontropnats, it seems you've fallen under the label of hipster by accident, in my opinion. Hipster has become a catch all label for people who may actually enjoy being cultured, and partaking in culture. At another time in history, the label was referred to as the "renaissance man" or "woman", as it were. No Mr. Vontropnats, I am not saying you are not a hipster by any means, because you can give yourself any label you choose. What I do know is that I myself, as a complete finance nerd, also enjoy many things "hipsterish". I am not a social liberal, indeed, I'm about as conservative as they come. And yet, I've always gravitated towards indie music, random philosophical conversations, and non-chain coffee shops. The hipster chick, with her flannel and purposefully large, non-prescription spectacles delights and elates my senses. One might even say I'm a conservative hipster, though the term may seem paradoxic. And yet, and yet, to be cultured, and to enjoy partaking in culture, is to me the one of the most satisfying things.

Being a liberal hipster is so mainstream, conservative hipsters are the real hipsters.

4/6/12

"Being a liberal hipster is so mainstream, conservative hipsters are the real hipsters."

Haha love it!

Moody brooding Artsy fartsy flannel wearing fake glasses indie snob ["one percenter" (uneducated bullshit label)] conservative constitutionalist hedge fund hipster. This is an aspirational aspect of my psyche.

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

4/6/12

This guy is obviously dumb; a hipster is not even a "hipster" anymore everyone is in some way a goddamn hipster. Its not even cool anymore. You should do what ever makes you happy. I hate indie rock, but love hiphop from the 90's to the mid 2000's back when NY ran everything. I also like the "bottles and models" idea but its not real because coming out of school there's no way you afford to drop thousands every weekend at places like one oak or lavo; you'll be living on the street in no time even on 80-90k salary. I also started getting to the art scene recently and the girls that like that kind of thing; their just more interesting than you everyday abercrombie model from nebraska that seem to have over run the city. Just do you and stop caring what sub-culture you fit into this isn't high school

"The worse a situation becomes the less it takes to turn it around, the bigger the upside."-George Soros

4/6/12

I like hallucinogens and the Grateful Dead. Will I be able to make friends in IB?

4/6/12

So much hate from so many monkeys... :(

It's almost as if all of you missed the fact that the original post is not actually serious. Sure, some of these things about me are true, but I wrote the post with the intent of getting some good discussion about a topic (social groups) that people generally like to talk about and handing out a few lulz in the process.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

4/6/12
Vontropnats:

So much hate from so many monkeys... :(

It's almost as if all of you missed the fact that the original post is not actually serious. Sure, some of these things about me are true, but I wrote the post with the intent of getting some good discussion about a topic (social groups) that people generally like to talk about and handing out a few lulz in the process.

Now you're not just a douche-nozzle pseudo-iintellectual hipster, but a douche-nozzle pseudo-intellectual hipster who pretends not to be when people start making fun of him. At least have some integrity. Pathetic.

4/8/12

Toms are a hideous abortion of an unholy union between footwraps and african sandals; and are crocs' uglier cousin(s?). The only thing nastier to put on your feet is a fungus infection

More is good, all is better

4/9/12

OP, what's sad is that, not only are you not a hipster because an actual hipster would rather give herself a homemade lobotomy than admit to being a hipster, you're a want to be hipster. Why would you openly prescribe to that lifestyle? Hipsters are like bankers, they don't create anything and simply leach onto other people's creativity and hard work. Soon as whatever it is they're into isn't cool anymore, they move onto what is; and sooner or later have to try to save face when whatever it was the once thought was cool comes back in vogue, pretend like they where always into that thing, and flip-flop back in the vein of a John Kerry or Mitt Romney.

Why don't you just like the things you like, listen to the music you like and dress the way you like sans any bullshit sub-culture tag? Also, here's why you'll (likely) never be a banker. We had an intern last summer, who as far as anyone could tell, was a huge weirdo hipster. Dude wore thick frame glasses, overly tight khaki's with blue swede driving mocks everyday. Never rolled out with the lunch crew or shot the "frat-bar" style shit re: getting hammered, didn't care about anything sports related and more than likely is into bondage and S&M.

However, the guy could fucking crank. If had shitty project, even for an intern, he'd review it, nod his head he understood and it'd get done w/ no busts or issues. He's coming back this summer and is likely going to be a top bucket analyst sans his freak-show shit. This a job, not a social circle, don't think you get that. Nobody gives a fuck long as you're hot shit with your deliverables and don't make the team look bad.

Ace all your PE interview questions with the WSO Private Equity Prep Pack: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/private-equit...

4/9/12

You're cool with me my guy...

4/9/12
4/9/12

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My story | My Linkedin

4/9/12

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

5/5/12

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

5/5/12
7/7/12
10/21/12

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

10/24/12
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