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10/24/11

I am a senior at lower tier Ivy going through On Campus Interviews... and, to say the least, the results so far have been very disappointing. This year's recruiting has been brutal in my opinion, as like 2 of the Bulge Brackets didn't even show up to recruit this year at my school. I am kicking myself in the butt for not going for SA recruiting back in my junior year. Last year, I didn't know I wanted IBD and did Consulting internship. (which, unfortunately, didn't lead to permanent offer) This year, like 500 kids from my school applied for like 3-4 analyst jobs at GS. I was wondering if anyone else out there going through interviews have tough time at their school. (I hope my school's not the only one that has a bitch recruiting season...) To those who aren't getting IBD offers: what is your next plan?? What do you plan to do after graduating?

I have 3.5 GPA in Econ at low tier Ivy and got dinged by all IBD shops and didn't make it to any of their second rounds. I realize I am not the most competitive candidate as there are kids with better GPA and more finance-related resume, but, I expected to at least land several interviews, which wasn't the case. (I got 1 on-campus interview after pre-select and didn't make it to second round)

Is this year's FT recruiting for IBD one of the worst ever in history? What's the deal.

Comments (223)

10/22/11

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Investment Banking Interview Course

10/22/11
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

10/22/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

10/22/11
bears1208:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

Agree with this, if you can get a decent job without doing a MSF, take it.

Looking at the MSF stats at decent places, I saw that at most 1/3 of them got "good" finance jobs. These are the jobs that you're fighting over now. The rest were rather unappealing. Those don't seem like great odds.

10/22/11
bears1208:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

Does your school get F500 corp finance recruiting? At my school, only F500 company that came was GE for its finance rotational program. Where/how do I even apply for these jobs if these companies don't come to recruit on campus.

10/22/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

Does your school get F500 corp finance recruiting? At my school, only F500 company that came was GE for its finance rotational program. Where/how do I even apply for these jobs if these companies don't come to recruit on campus.

A few do, but not more than like 5 or 6. But I did leg work, got in touch with alumni, and did things like apply online and/or send my resume to contacts. I applied to roughly 75ish jobs and got like 15, first rounds and only one IBD. Also, fwiw, one of my f500 offers is a business smaller analyst for a consumer goods company that I got through OCR and one was a known finance rotational program I got a phone interview for from networking. It's been tough because my internship experience was tech related but I've taken what I've gotten and I'd be happy with BB private banking. Fwiw I think the msf only helps depending on what type of internship you can get this summer. If you can't get an IBD internship you probably won't have any more luck in that department but maybe more luck in f500.

10/22/11

Yes, I hear recruiting is pretty bad at my school as well. You can extend your graduation and apply for SA this winter if you really want to be an analyst in investment banking.

10/22/11

Yea, its been pretty rough at my school as well. We aren't ivy or a BB target, but we are semi-target for firms such as Wells, SunTrust, Raymond James, and R.W Baird. This year we placed 4 undergrads and 7-10 out of the MSF class when it is usually much higher. The problem is that most banks are really raising the bar. When I went to the Wells superday I was shocked to see guys from Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U Penn as my competition. All 6 of my fellow university super dayers were wait listed, but none of us are bad candidates. (A friend of mine accepted an offer from Jefferies).

It's really just a touch game out there, and it is extremely hard to break in if you don't have a connection or haven't done extensive networking. I didn't make the cut from 2 different superdays, but I was fortunate enough to get an offer from my third which I had networked with for several months.

If you can't break in for FT, then I would look for a summer IB analyst role and do MSF. This should allow you time to ride out this storm, develop your resume more tailored to banking, and give you time to start some strong networking initiatives.

Best of luck and I hope everything works out! Hang in there!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe those who are dedicated.

10/22/11
THE PsYcHoLoGy:

Yea, its been pretty rough at my school as well. We aren't ivy or a BB target, but we are semi-target for firms such as Wells, SunTrust, Raymond James, and R.W Baird. This year we placed 4 undergrads and 7-10 out of the MSF class when it is usually much higher. The problem is that most banks are really raising the bar. When I went to the Wells superday I was shocked to see guys from Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U Penn as my competition. All 6 of my fellow university super dayers were wait listed, but none of us are bad candidates. (A friend of mine accepted an offer from Jefferies).

It's really just a touch game out there, and it is extremely hard to break in if you don't have a connection or haven't done extensive networking. I didn't make the cut from 2 different superdays, but I was fortunate enough to get an offer from my third which I had networked with for several months.

If you can't break in for FT, then I would look for a summer IB analyst role and do MSF. This should allow you time to ride out this storm, develop your resume more tailored to banking, and give you time to start some strong networking initiatives.

Best of luck and I hope everything works out! Hang in there!

Congrats on your offer. I am jealous. And, thanks for your suggestion. My fear with doing an MSF program is that IBD recruiting may not get any better anytime soon and I might still strike out on IBD, even if I go to MSF. I would hate to spend all that money and time to come up short again.

I do agree with your observation that landing IBD gig this year is a bitch. I have 2 friends at Harvard and they tell me unless you landed SA position for internship your junior year or have some contacts to bank on, you are pretty much fucked for IBD recruiting, even coming out of Harvard with good GPA. So, I guess going into FT IBD recruiting without SA IBD internship background is really the kiss of death. (I wish I knew this fact earlier...)

By the way, do banks still recruit MSF kids who did not have IBD internships in the past before the master's degree?? And, what are some MSF programs that place well into IBD. Thanks in advance.

10/22/11

a lot of banks just froze ft hiring and gave out crazy return offers to their summer interns, and most interns are going back.

i'm sure this is not as bad for 2009/2010 graduates, but it's pretty shitty

10/22/11

Why do we feel bad for the Cornell kid that didn't even decide he wanted to go into IBD until his senior year..? OP is really at a huge disadvantage I don't know how he will manage..Your classmates are going into corporate finance with the f500's they lined up as their back up options. You probably should have worked harder.

10/22/11
Sean518:

Why do we feel bad for the Cornell kid that didn't even decide he wanted to go into IBD until his senior year..? OP is really at a huge disadvantage I don't know how he will manage..Your classmates are going into corporate finance with the f500's they lined up as their back up options. You probably should have worked harder.

I am not asking for your sympathy. I am interested in hearing about others' advice or their courses of action if they find themselves in similar situations as myself. I wanted to go into Management Consulting initially but after talking with several bankers and interacting with my kids who were in IBD, I decided IBD fits my interest and career goals better. FWIW, until last year, I thought I could try out consulting for internship and still land a banking job at FT recruiting in the fall. I just had this misconception that having management consulting internship on my resume would enable me to break into high finance and other consulting shops, too. (this is what the career services lady told me)

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "being at huge disadvantage".

10/22/11

I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.

10/22/11
timatom90:

I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.

Holy shit... where did you get this information? Did you have any luck in IBD so far? FT recruiting this year really is the kiss of death...

10/22/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.

Holy shit... where did you get this information? Did you have any luck in IBD so far? FT recruiting this year really is the kiss of death...

I networked a lot over the summer, wasn't too excited to go back to the bank where I interned this summer (regional city), and a lot of the banks were straight forward in telling me that their classes were nearly full. I've had success in getting interviews and final rounds, but like I said, a lot of these banks are only hiring 1-2 analysts out of their 10-20ish superday applicants and no offers yet (turned down my return offer... starting to feel pretty dumb lol). Good luck with your own recruiting.

10/22/11

Also I just want to point out that relying strictly on OCR has always been a terrible idea.

10/23/11

If you say "like" as anywhere near as often as you write it, then I like totally understand why you like couldn't get hired.

10/24/11
Smith3408:

If you say "like" as anywhere near as often as you write it, then I like totally understand why you like couldn't get hired.

This was my first thought exactly. If you use it this much in text, I can only imagine how much you use it automatically while speaking.

10/23/11

you wrote that you go to Cornell in your profile. No point in saying that you go to a law tier ivy. People can easily find out. also, i'm not sure what you are talking about. i have numerous senior friends who have gotten offers at good banks and hedge funds. You probably are just not a competitive applicant. and that is your own fault

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/23/11

It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.

10/24/11
MD8:

It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.

Thanks for your suggestion.

I was thinking of going this route in case nothing pans out. Do you know if I will be at significant disadvantage at MBA recruiting for IBD, because I did not have pre-MBA IBD analyst work experience?

I am wondering if I can just do non-IBD job for 3-4 years, go to MBA, and still land an IBD associate gig.

One thing I am afraid of is that even if I go to a top MBA, I may not walk away with that IBD associate job that I want. My brother went to Harvard MBA (he graduated last year) and he told me recruiting was tough as shit. He told me that the problem he had was that there are way too many ex-I-bankers at Harvard MBA/ other top MBA programs and all of them want to go back to banking. And, as we know, the economy is a piece of shit now. He didn't land IBD or MBB consulting and he is working at a F500 corporate finance.

Right now, I am trying to evaluate different options and I would like to maximize my chances of getting IBD down the road.

10/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
MD8:

It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.

Thanks for your suggestion.

I was thinking of going this route in case nothing pans out. Do you know if I will be at significant disadvantage at MBA recruiting for IBD, because I did not have pre-MBA IBD analyst work experience?

I am wondering if I can just do non-IBD job for 3-4 years, go to MBA, and still land an IBD associate gig.

One thing I am afraid of is that even if I go to a top MBA, I may not walk away with that IBD associate job that I want. My brother went to Harvard MBA (he graduated last year) and he told me recruiting was tough as shit. He told me that the problem he had was that there are way too many ex-I-bankers at Harvard MBA/ other top MBA programs and all of them want to go back to banking. And, as we know, the economy is a piece of shit now. He didn't land IBD or MBB consulting and he is working at a F500 corporate finance.

Right now, I am trying to evaluate different options and I would like to maximize my chances of getting IBD down the road.

Finance job market this year for top MBA's is actually worse than last year. Ex-bankers who wanted buyside are either going back to banking or doing something different. Lot of second-years I've talked to are getting pretty scared.

10/24/11

I think us non-target folks have done a lot of damage to the target-school system over the past five years. Recruiting shouldn't be based on which school you went to but what you've done with the cards you've been dealt over the past few years.

Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing some spots. By banking standards, 3.5 in Econ at Cornell has become a bit subpar when you are competing against Math majors with 3.7s.

Also, it is a tough economy for FT recruiting. Maybe this is a good time to readjust your expectations and look for work at an F500 firm.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:

I think there's a lot of damage being done to the target school system most banks have by us non-target folks.

Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing spots.

You were a bad fit for Cornell. They never should have accepted you. The Cornellians I know are some of the least entitled, least presumptuous Ivy Leaguers out there. You would have been a much better fit for Art History at Brown.

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

10/24/11
bears1208:

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

I know a bunch of Cornell Engineers. They're all pretty cool guys and fun to hang out with. They can talk about Yuengling and college football all day long, or tell jokes about circuits. They DON'T talk about spending lots of money on stupid stuff, they DON'T enjoy hanging out at the Cornell/Yale/Harvard club, and they fit well into our group of state school engineers.

I dunno. My experience is that the Arrogance/Intellect quotient is lower than nearly every other Ivy. Slightly higher denominator, much lower numerator. It is much more consistent with that of UChicago, Northwestern, and Michigan than that of Brown, Columbia, or Dartmouth. When is Cornell going to leave the Ivies and join the Big Ten?

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
bears1208:

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

I know a bunch of Cornell Engineers. They're all pretty cool guys and fun to hang out with. They can talk about Yuengling and college football all day long, or tell jokes about circuits. They DON'T talk about spending lots of money on stupid stuff, they DON'T enjoy hanging out at the Cornell/Yale/Harvard club, and they fit well into our group of state school engineers.

Cornellians are some of the least pretentious Ivy Leaguers I've met. If the Big Ten became the Big Thirteen, Cornell would be an excellent fit. They're as chill as Northwestern- maybe even UMich.

I dunno. My experience is that the Arrogance/Intellect quotient is lower than nearly every other Ivy. Slightly higher denominator, much lower numerator.

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

10/24/11
bears1208:

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.

I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.

I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
bears1208:

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.

I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.

I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D

IP, let's be honest... Illinois, until their recent resurgence had a tough enough time beating Indiana, let alone the rest of the Big Ten schools. That being said, the Illini fans that have come up to tailgate in Happy Valley have always been gracious and fun guests... Gotta love the Big Ten camaraderie... It makes me smile that we are taking more and more jobs from the "Ivy elite"...

10/24/11
rufiolove:
IlliniProgrammer:
bears1208:

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.

I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.

I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D

IP, let's be honest... Illinois, until their recent resurgence had a tough enough time beating Indiana, let alone the rest of the Big Ten schools. That being said, the Illini fans that have come up to tailgate in Happy Valley have always been gracious and fun guests... Gotta love the Big Ten camaraderie... It makes me smile that we are taking more and more jobs from the "Ivy elite"...

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

10/24/11
bears1208:
IlliniProgrammer:

I think there's a lot of damage being done to the target school system most banks have by us non-target folks.

Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing spots.

You were a bad fit for Cornell. They never should have accepted you. The Cornellians I know are some of the least entitled, least presumptuous Ivy Leaguers out there. You would have been a much better fit for Art History at Brown.

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

10/24/11

LOLOLOLOL toooo much fail in this thread for me to comment.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.

A physics major spends about 80% of college solving calculus and stats problems between his math, physics, and engineering courses. I am not convinced that the liberal arts teach the same discipline of focus and offer an equivalent set of professional competencies when you oscillate between Modern Latin American History and Cognitive Psych.

If you love liberal arts, that's great, but it's almost more of a hobby than a discipline. I wish colleges taught hang gliding as a major- I would have been all over that especially if I had parents willing to pay for it.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.

A physics major spends about 80% of college solving calculus and stats problems between his math, physics, and engineering courses. I am not convinced that the liberal arts teach the same discipline of focus and offer an equivalent set of professional competencies when you oscillate between Modern Latin American History and Cognitive Psych.

If you love liberal arts, that's great, but it's almost more of a hobby than a discipline. I wish colleges taught hang gliding as a major- I would have been all over that especially if I had parents willing to pay for it.

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about your analytical toolkit, mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from a top 100 school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

It doesn't. I have no problem with people who went to target schools. The problem is when folks think that going to target school X entitles them to something or makes them special.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Nobody is bashing the Ivies. Chicagoans are very sensitive to the arrogance/skill quotient, with particular regard to the numerator. UChicago and Northwestern are in the same boat as many Ivies, but they follow a different culture. If you don't think your school makes you special, the bashing stops. Notre Dame on the other hand thinks they have an amazing football team but it keeps losing, so Chicagoans like to laugh about that too. Marquette thinks that they're the best Catholic school in the country, which we also make fun of. It is the same story over and over where somebody thinks they're special, annoys a bunch of Chicagoans, and gets clobbered for it. You are not being singled out so much for the jealousy as much as the fact that, like Notre Dame, you're not as special as you claim to be. (Unsurprisingly, Notre Dame fans brush it off as jealousy when we laugh at them for another losing season and wear ties from our sports teams the day after they beat ND, and Marquetters get annoyed and start claiming jealousy when we point out that they're #90 in the rankings vs. Michigan's ~35.)

Chicago is a smaller town than New York where a little more community comes with a little more accountability. We get hit by tornadoes, blizzards, and all kinds of other stuff every year, and we've learned a healthy respect for man's limitations. And rumors about our education notwithstanding, we've also read the stories about Icharus and Arachne. So if you're going to claim that you've got something really special and amazing, Chicagoans and Midwesterners in general are going to call you on that hubris, or at the very least see if you've got the skills to back it up. That's just how the culture works out there.

Take your number, do your thing, and don't pretend you or anything about you is all that special- otherwise somebody with more skill and humility than you is going to come along and have some fun at your expense.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

10/24/11
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.

10/24/11
bears1208:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.

You could go on but you would continually not make sense. I said my 3.7 was absolutely nothing special for WALL STREET recruiting at an Ivy. So why should this kid think his 3.5 with no internship experience will get him a job. That's what I was saying. Sorry you didn't understand that.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.

You could go on but you would continually not make sense. I said my 3.7 was absolutely nothing special for WALL STREET recruiting at an Ivy. So why should this kid think his 3.5 with no internship experience will get him a job. That's what I was saying. Sorry you didn't understand that.

Actually, uhhh, you may want to reread what you wrote. Man, this is getting a little embarrassing for you.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

10/24/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

Dude, I don't care what your GPA is and how smart/ hard working you are. I don't give shit. The point is you are contributing no useful information or advice whatsoever. Instead, you go on telling me that I am a pussy, retard, and piece of crap.

This world will be a better place without a-holes like you. Sincerely.

10/24/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

Dude, I don't care what your GPA is and how smart/ hard working you are. I don't give shit. The point is you are contributing no useful information or advice whatsoever. Instead, you go on telling me that I am a pussy, retard, and piece of crap.

This world will be a better place without a-holes like you. Sincerely.

Well, I didn't attack you until you made comments directed at me because I called your 3.5 gpa crap, which is FACTUALLY CORRECT. I said your gpa was crap, which again, IS TRUE.

Listen, you asked why recruiting was so tough this year and I answered. You tried blaming your failures on the lack of recruiting, which again shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

For example, all of these firms came this semester to recruit:

Goldman
JP Morgan
Citi
UBS
DB
Moelis
Lazard
Morgan Stanley
Bank of America
Guggenheim

Bridgewater
Tudor Investment
Weiss Asset Management
Susquehanna Investment Group

and countless others. Sorry you struck out, recruiting was perfectly normal.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/25/11
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is starting to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

I can't believe you really said that posting on a website makes you smart.

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

+1

well stated. i'd rather work with smart engineers from state schools than bullshit artists from "top targets" any day of the week.

here's a secret to HYP: yes, a lot of kids in there are fucking smart, but a lot of them lied and cheated their way in, so their admission is more a function of their mendacity. do a survey on how many of them got special status as learning disabled so they were able to get extra time on SATs, APs, regular exams, etc.

dig a little more into how many of them flat out lied on their ECs and activities. having interned in the adcom for 1.5 years i have much less regard for the admissions process now than before.

10/25/11
ivoteforthatguy:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

+1

well stated. i'd rather work with smart engineers from state schools than bullshit artists from "top targets" any day of the week.

here's a secret to HYP: yes, a lot of kids in there are fucking smart, but a lot of them lied and cheated their way in, so their admission is more a function of their mendacity. do a survey on how many of them got special status as learning disabled so they were able to get extra time on SATs, APs, regular exams, etc.

dig a little more into how many of them flat out lied on their ECs and activities. having interned in the adcom for 1.5 years i have much less regard for the admissions process now than before.

lol, are you fucking serious?

bitter much?

10/25/11
BallDontLie:
ivoteforthatguy:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

+1

well stated. i'd rather work with smart engineers from state schools than bullshit artists from "top targets" any day of the week.

here's a secret to HYP: yes, a lot of kids in there are fucking smart, but a lot of them lied and cheated their way in, so their admission is more a function of their mendacity. do a survey on how many of them got special status as learning disabled so they were able to get extra time on SATs, APs, regular exams, etc.

dig a little more into how many of them flat out lied on their ECs and activities. having interned in the adcom for 1.5 years i have much less regard for the admissions process now than before.

lol, are you fucking serious?

bitter much?

serious yes. bitter? i had to wake up at 6am/go to bed at 1am regularly in HS to get myself into my top choice. i did this on my own without any cheating or assists from psychologists. i don't appreciate a bunch of mediocre fucks who got to the same goal with cheating. so yes, a little bitter. you got me there.

10/24/11

I don't think people realize that networking is THE MOST important part of getting a job (far more important than technicals or brainteasers, those are the easy parts...)

Even if you have an impressive resume, it's one resume in a stack of ~300 to ~500 for every OCR job at a target (heard this straight from several recruiters).

They give out first rounds to 10-20 people, then second rounds to ~1/3rd of those, and end up hiring maybe ~3-5.

The hardest part is going from the resume drop to getting a 1st round interview, at which point your chances are significantly improved... talk to alums, frat brothers, family friends, etc... talk to ANALYSTS because analysts from your alma mater (or in the case of non-Ivys, they have a non-core school resume team too) will be weeding out the resumes. The best way to get an interview is to have an analyst pass your resume straight through to the "interview" pile without having to pass through the resume gauntlet.

Once you get the interview, it's all a game of numbers--assuming that you're a reasonably-qualified candidate.

10/24/11
Solidarity:

I don't think people realize that networking is THE MOST important part of getting a job (far more important than technicals or brainteasers, those are the easy parts...)

Even if you have an impressive resume, it's one resume in a stack of ~300 to ~500 for every OCR job at a target (heard this straight from several recruiters).

They give out first rounds to 10-20 people, then second rounds to ~1/3rd of those, and end up hiring maybe ~3-5.

The hardest part is going from the resume drop to getting a 1st round interview, at which point your chances are significantly improved... talk to alums, frat brothers, family friends, etc... talk to ANALYSTS because analysts from your alma mater (or in the case of non-Ivys, they have a non-core school resume team too) will be weeding out the resumes. The best way to get an interview is to have an analyst pass your resume straight through to the "interview" pile without having to pass through the resume gauntlet.

Once you get the interview, it's all a game of numbers--assuming that you're a reasonably-qualified candidate.

I think networking can be quite important for banking jobs. But for hedge funds, private equity, and prop trading, I'm not quite sure it matters that much. Usually companies like citadel/de shaw/jane street, etc., could care less who you know. They want smart kids with high gpa's in quant majors, who can rock the technical questions during the interviews.

10/24/11

Hell, at an Ivy/target, your ROIC on networking will be fucking incredible compared to a non-target. If a kid from my school with a 3.5+ in econ/stats/math/finance, 2200+, and a demonstrated interest in finance took the initiative to network me 3 months before recruiting season, hell yea I'm telling HR to give him an interview.

I think networking can be quite important for banking jobs. But for hedge funds, private equity, and prop trading, I'm not quite sure it matters that much. Usually companies like citadel/de shaw/jane street, etc., could care less who you know. They want smart kids with high gpa's in quant majors, who can rock the technical questions during the interviews.

My point holds true for a lot of PE and more fundamental, value-oriented HF's as well. And ceteris paribus, a guy who networks still stands a better chance of landing a job at DE or Jane Street

10/24/11
Solidarity:

My point holds true for a lot of PE and more fundamental, value-oriented HF's as well. And ceteris paribus, a guy who networks still stands a better job of land at DE or Jane Street

It's always good to know somebody who can get you an interview, but in trading much more emphasis is placed upon personality and technical skill. A lot of quants and traders are INTJs who (A) find networkers incredibly annoying and really don't want to work with those folks and (B) eat what they kill and expect others to do the same.

I want to see a kid who's not exactly a networker but who's got a certain level of technical skill, work ethic, and bravery/toughness. And to be fair, it's a lot easier to test the bravery/toughness in a kid who started the game late than started it early.

10/24/11

Must be nice to have OCR

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/24/11

I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.

I don't care how competitive OCR is. The point is that you actually get a first round, you get a chance however 'slim' it is, non-targets have to work 2x-5x-10x-20x times whatever the hell it is harder to even get that chance that 5/10 times never comes anyway. Don't be ignorant of recruiting reality.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.

Funny... just had a conversation about that. I've met some people in grad programs at Harvard and they rarely tell anyone they just met that they go to Harvard. It's always, "a [insert program here] in Boston".

Although, I did also hear a guy hitting on some chick in line for a bar and said he's getting his mba/md from Harvard and he's going to be "mother fucking rich". Girl turned around and called him a dbag to her friends. It's these types of people IP is referring to...

Investment Banking Interview Course

10/24/11

Edit: I can't write anything coherent, but you're wrong.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/24/11

IP, non-targets are not disproportionately successful on Wall St. If that were true, there would be far more recruiting at non-targets. Why wouldn't banks recruit the people who are most likely to be successful?

If you're talking about banking specifically, it's full of mediocre people and a few people who really excel at it. Where did all the top bankers go to school -- you know Greenhill, Perella, Moelis, etc? Targets.

The rest of the top talent tends to filter out to HFs and PE firms, most of which are chock-full of target kids.

This is not to say that there aren't smart, successful non-target students, many of whom were more than smart enough to be admitted to a target. But to say that they are disproportionately successful or on average better in any other context is just not true.

10/24/11

IP, non-targets are not disproportionately successful on Wall St. If that were true, there would be far more recruiting at non-targets. Why wouldn't banks recruit the people who are most likely to be successful?

Let's be clear. There's a difference between your average non-target and the non-target who makes it onto wall street. Same with the average target school kid and average target school kid who makes it onto wall street. It's simply conditional probability- given that you HAVE made it to wall street, the fact that you had to clear a higher hurdle coming from a non-target school means you're generally more competitive.

The rest of the top talent tends to filter out to HFs and PE firms, most of which are chock-full of target kids.

Can't speak to PE shops, but Getco and Citadel have a number of state school kids. Know a kid 4 years out of school who's running Citadel's HFT operation on the CBOE. Yup, state schooler.

This is not to say that there aren't smart, successful non-target students, many of whom were more than smart enough to be admitted to a target. But to say that they are disproportionately successful or on average better in any other context is just not true.

Nobody is saying that the average state schooler is smarter than the average target school kid. What I'm saying is that large non-target schools get a bigger benefit from fat tails than target schools. The top 50 at say, Nebraska or Pitt represent 0.5% of the student population while the top 50 at Harvard represent 2-3%. So a well-run firm capable of combing through resumes and doing lots of strong interviews is going to be able to find better candidates- and pay them less- at a large non-target school than at a target.

To be honest, banks go to target schools because they're lazy. They would rather have the schools that do the filtering based upon high school accomplishments and removing responsible upper-middle-class parents who've paid down their mortgages so they have home equity that FAFSA thinks is available for tuition payments. This way, no matter how badly they screw up the interview process, only 30% of the entering class will have to be dumped in the next two years.

Frankly I think a kid who goes to a lower tier school because he gets a scholarship or in-state tuition is pretty darned smart if he's got the brains and discipline to back it up and get a strong GPA with a few strong extracurriculars and a polished interview.

So why not just have a better-run recruiting process? The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard. The non-target folks are forcing the banks to reduce the difference between the two bars that target school kids and non-target kids face by providing more information about these schools and where to find the smartest candidates. Eventually we'll be rid of the target school system and yes, there will be disproportionate numbers of people from Ivies at banks, but everyone will clear the same (now much higher) bar. We'll take the top 0.5% from community colleges, top 2% from state schools, top 5% from lower-tier Ivies, and top 7-10% from H/Y/P/W/C/S. It's not what you did in high school but what you've done lately that counts, anyways. Why should we take the bottom 90% from ANY school?

10/24/11

I go to Georgetown, and while it used to be the case that banks universally preferred to recruit kids from the School of Foreign Service over kids from the undergrad business school, recent years have shifted that trend a little bit. This year OCR has been pretty thin, but it seems like just as many, if not more, business school kids have bulge bracket or elite boutique jobs.

The undergrad business school has become more selective, but not quickly enough to justify the sudden shift in recruiting success from SFS to business school. It seems like banks are starting to prefer kids that have shown interest in Finance and Accounting (or other related fields) in their major and their extracurriculars over the students in the more prestigious programs like SFS, or liberal arts majors at Ivies, even though admissions stats would suggest that, on average, those kids are smarter...

10/24/11

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

I came here to hear others' advice and their stories as to how recruiting is going for them. I am a long-time lurker of this forum and found many posts useful.

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

10/24/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
IlliniProgrammer:

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

I came here to hear others' advice and their stories as to how recruiting is going for them. I am a long-time lurker of this forum and found many posts useful.

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

I don't understand what is wrong with you. I never mentioned anything about you until you said something to ME. You asked if it was the recruiting. I said no, YOUR GPA is not good enough to warrant interviews with no experience. But for some reason your reading comprehension is lacking and you interpret that as a ad-hominem attack.

Take accountability for your own problems, don't blame it on the recruiting.

Grow up guy.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
IlliniProgrammer:

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

I came here to hear others' advice and their stories as to how recruiting is going for them. I am a long-time lurker of this forum and found many posts useful.

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

I don't understand what is wrong with you. I never mentioned anything about you until you said something to ME. You asked if it was the recruiting. I said no, YOUR GPA is not good enough to warrant interviews with no experience. But for some reason your reading comprehension is lacking and you interpret that as a ad-hominem attack.

Take accountability for your own problems, don't blame it on the recruiting.

Grow up guy.

No experience?

I had internship with one of MBB consulting last summer. Granted, it is not finance-related experience, but MBB consulting on my resume is legit, and I thought that combined with 3.5 GPA may land some interviews.

I would try to stay away from saying that a person with 3.5 GPA is a retard or something in that nature. Here's the hint: many people out there have sub-3.5 GPA both at Cornell and outside Cornell, and if you say some bull shit like 'dude, 3.5 = retard', chances are people will not be very impressed with you.

10/24/11

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'.

Had you stopped after the first sentence, you'd have looked like an adult. Now the fighting continues.

A 3.5 does not make you a retard, but it doesn't make you a competitive candidate for banking at Cornell. Try to find a job at a Fortune 500 firm and see if you can transition into banking later.

It's a tough market. That GPA would have cut it five years ago. Not anymore.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

Had you stopped after the first sentence, you'd have looked like an adult. Now the fighting continues.

A 3.5 does not make you a retard, but it doesn't make you a competitive candidate for banking at Cornell. Try to find a job at a Fortune 500 firm and see if you can transition into banking later.

It's a tough market. That GPA would have cut it five years ago. Not anymore.

Thank you for your feedback.

I got interviews with some top consulting firms last year with my GPA, so I figured I would stand a decent chance of landing interviews for banking roles.

What kind of jobs should I be gunning for?? And, do you have any advice as to how I can lateral to IBD later?? Thanks for your advice.

10/24/11

What kind of jobs should I be gunning for?? And, do you have any advice as to how I can lateral to IBD later?? Thanks for your advice.

The energy patch is booming. BP has a huge trading program that flies under the radar. Same with Royal Dutch Shell, Exelon, and NRG.

It's great experience and the competition is a bit less extreme.

10/24/11

Enrique, were you unable to get a consulting job? Consulting to top mba to IBD seems like your best bet.

10/24/11

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

10/25/11
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

10/26/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

You really need to network. If you don't have a background in finance or something that otherwise demonstrates your interest in finance, then it's time to hit up your alumni network since at least this way you get to explain your story to someone, who, if they believe you and like you, would likely help you out.

10/26/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

In my opinion going from cornell to MSF program will look like a pretty major step down

why dont you just go run a hotel in some exotic locale?

10/26/11
deal_mkr:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

In my opinion going from cornell to MSF program will look like a pretty major step down

why dont you just go run a hotel in some exotic locale?

This depends on where he gets his msf. If he goes to princeton or LSE it's definitely not. If he goes to vandy or WUSTL there will be a little less as IBD recruiting through OCR but not by much. And in those cases it will really depend on networking/this summers SA. He can easily sell that to an employer.

10/24/11

It's a tough market. Good ideas are cheap and cash is very expensive. IMHO, the best move is to land the job you can and pay cash for school.

10/24/11

OP, I'm glad you didn't get a job in banking. I can tell just by reading your posts that you don't deserve it. Have fun getting anywhere in life.

You are just a whining baby.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:

OP, I'm glad you didn't get a job in banking. I can tell just by reading your posts that you don't deserve it. Have fun getting anywhere in life.

You are just a whining baby.

Dude, shut the fuck up. And stop acting like such a child.

10/24/11
bears1208:
Will Hunting:

OP, I'm glad you didn't get a job in banking. I can tell just by reading your posts that you don't deserve it. Have fun getting anywhere in life.

You are just a whining baby.

Dude, shut the fuck up. And stop acting like such a child.

Yo internet tough guy. You're cooooooool

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

Although, I did also hear a guy hitting on some chick in line for a bar and said he's getting his mba/md from Harvard and he's going to be "mother fucking rich". Girl turned around and called him a dbag to her friends. It's these types of people IP is referring to...

Well, yes. I met one "Fred from Yale" during my SA program a couple years ago. Kinda sealed my impressions of the school. And I made a friend when a lady walked up to him and introduced herself as "Dhivya from Stoneybrook" to the laughter of a number of interns.

10/24/11

I wouldn't want someone hiring you and then seeing how much of a baby you are and then having them get a bad impression of Cornell.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

Also, I will never have to work with you. Automatically makes my life better

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

UBS is still recruiting for sure lol

If you're desperate, PM me your resume and I'll FW it to the staffer that I know

10/25/11
Solidarity:

UBS is still recruiting for sure lol

If you're desperate, PM me your resume and I'll FW it to the staffer that I know

Wait, is this a joke?

I am desperate at this point, and I have a contact there, but he told me like in September they were still waiting on summers. I figured with all the stuff going on UBS wouldn't be recruiting at all regardless after that. Should I email him again now? Or you were joking right?

10/24/11

All those banks came to your school?

I hate you all....

I think that we are all clinging to a great many piano tops...

10/24/11
ekimlacks:

All those banks came to your school?

I hate you all....

Just because a bank appears on your college's job postings website doesn't mean that they are necessarily hiring or hiring that many, or even interviewing in some cases. For example, one recruiter straight up told me that they were doing 28 interviews, and looking to hire 1-2 analysts from my school.

That's actually a pretty decent ratio, considering every superday (5) I went to this year, I've been the only kid from my school there.

10/24/11

This has to be the dumbest thread I've seen on WSO yet.

Moderators please lock this thread.

10/24/11

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

No....I can see that. Not necessarily smarter, but definitely able to compete with the top 50 from Harvard. I don't see why not...??

And wow...people are very sensitive about where they went/go to school. Internet fights are always a no no.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

are you kidding me? do you know anything about standard deviations and sample selection? lol

if you use standardized testing as a proxy measure for "intelligence", I guarantee that the top 50 students at Berk > top 50 students at Havard

10/25/11
Solidarity:
LeoMessi:

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

are you kidding me? do you know anything about standard deviations and sample selection? lol

if you use standardized testing as a proxy measure for "intelligence", I guarantee that the top 50 students at Berk > top 50 students at Havard

I don't think you have any ability to comprehend how intelligent the top 50 students at Harvard are.

If the top 50 students at Berkeley were so amazing, most of them would be at Harvard.

10/24/11

Non-targets throwing monkey shit at me because their egos are bruised. What, do you really think most of you can compete with the top kids at targets? No, you cant. Some of you definitely can--and some of you can even outpace the top kids at targets--but the vast majority of you are not as good, which is why banks don't recruit at your schools. The concentration of top talent at targets blows non-targets out of the water.

I'm convinced that the non-targets who get into front office roles at the bulge brackets deserve it, and those who don't wouldn't have made it coming from a target either. Non-targets have no idea how competitive OCR is at targets. Little factoid: most target students get jobs from sources outside OCR. Surprised? What that means is that only the top students at targets get jobs through OCR. If you weren't admitted to a target, you would not be the beneficiary of OCR. If you were but couldn't go, I'm sorry, but I'm firmly convinced that if you have the smarts, you will break in, even if you do have to work harder than you would have had to work at a target.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

Non-targets throwing monkey shit at me because their egos are bruised. What, do you really think most of you can compete with the top kids at targets? No, you cant. Some of you definitely can--and some of you can even outpace the top kids at targets--but the vast majority of you are not as good, which is why banks don't recruit at your schools. The concentration of top talent at targets blows non-targets out of the water.

I'm convinced that the non-targets who get into front office roles at the bulge brackets deserve it, and those who don't wouldn't have made it coming from a target either. Non-targets have no idea how competitive OCR is at targets. Little factoid: most target students get jobs from sources outside OCR. Surprised? What that means is that only the top students at targets get jobs through OCR. If you weren't admitted to a target, you would not be the beneficiary of OCR. If you were but couldn't go, I'm sorry, but I'm firmly convinced that if you have the smarts, you will break in, even if you do have to work harder than you would have had to work at a target.

making a lot of generalizations. I both agree and disagree with some of your points.

When you talk about top talent at a target vs nontarget, it really depends on what kind of nontarget you're talking about. I believe top talent @ Illinois can compete with top talent at targets. We have some pretty smart people...even in our business program. Now schools like Baruch (sorry guys - just my experience with Baruch students) then yes...maybe/probably.

Most target students may get jobs from outside OCR, but you have to understand that recruiting at a target is SUBSTANTIALLY greater than at a nontarget. More firms recruit AND take more students. Your chances are extremely higher PLUS targets have more alumni on the street, thus making it easier to get a job/break in outside of OCR.

Just a couple of things I wanted to point out. And yes, I do agree when you say if you have the smarts and are willing to make the sacrifices, you will break in.

10/25/11

Using standardized testing is stupid. Both are probably 2390 or 2400. But realistically, the top 50 at Harvard are IMO winners, Intel finalists, national debate champions, etc. Berkeley isn't home to that kind of talent.

Anyway this is a stupid argument. My point has already been made: smart kids from non-targets will still find a way to get in. Dumb kids from non-targets won't get in, and they wouldn't have gotten in if they had attended a target.

I'm done responding now

10/25/11

we're not talking about SAT ya artard

ARML / USAMO / S-B IQ

I agree with your points but that statemenet was retarded

10/25/11

Fine, use whichever standardized tests you want to use. I would argue that the top 50 Harvard students would outperform the top 50 Berkeley students on those tests, but I guess that's just an irreconcilable difference of opinion.

The larger point--and the only important one--still stands. By the way, check your PMs please.

10/25/11

I got into a HF with a 3.3 from a target, so anything is possible if you continue networking.

10/25/11

push your contact, a lot of their summers didn't want to take the return offer from what I heard--but this is just for one group... and regional offices are also recruiting on an ad hoc basis (Houston specifically, but they may be filled by now)

and lol just b/c of this circle jerk, I checked... Harvard's 25-75% SAT math range doesn't even hit 800 haha... shamed by Harvey Mudd

10/25/11
Solidarity:

push your contact, a lot of their summers didn't want to take the return offer from what I heard--but this is just for one group... and regional offices are also recruiting on an ad hoc basis (Houston specifically, but they may be filled by now)

and lol just b/c of this circle jerk, I checked... Harvard's 25-75% SAT math range doesn't even hit 800 haha... shamed by Harvey Mudd

How about nyc?

10/25/11

Leo you're romanticizing the target student that breaks in as someone that's always harder working, smarter or talented when that's definitely not true. There are target students that aren't always qualified that break in, it was never strictly merit based.

Second, brand name and alumni base make a huge difference so XYZ firm is probably going to be more likely to hire their kids from their school vs. no-name non-target.

Third, you're still not addressing the fact that there is OCR at targets, it's what makes them a target. Whether or not a non-target would have the same 'chance' at securing a 1st round interview at a target doesn't even matter b/c it's all hypothetical. Do stop saying it's hard or no one realizes how hard it is, breaking into IBD is hard and everyone knows it both target/non-target. But you can bust your ass at a non-target, have 2-3 connections fall through and you're back at square one. At a target you can bust your ass and have those connections, but also have OCR and still make it to a 1st round. So I'm not talking about the morons I may or may not go to school with, I'm talking about the guys that would/should have a shot that aren't getting one b/c they don't have OCR. The playing field isn't level so stop trying to say it is.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/25/11

Do people actually think that going to a target impressive? Or is working at an entry level banking position is somehow great? I did both. Oh, and I had high SAT scores and a high GPA. And my school had a lower acceptance ratio than most of the "top-targets."

Saying "a school in Boston" or a "school in the Bay area" is a thinly veiled attempt at eliciting the next question "which school." Just say what school you went to rather than feign humility.

And for goodness sake, getting into finance at the entry level is NOT impressive. IP would say the same. He is just as unimpressed with his job and relatively low position as he is with his alma mater or someone who went to Harvard.

There are more important things in life and better career paths.

I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.

10/25/11

Ouch Mr Douche. But yes. There are much better things to do with your life.

The problem with life is that you have to pick something to worship. Most folks on Wall Street worship money and power. And they aren't very good gods. They don't keep their promises and they demand a dozen hours a day for decades of your life. Suddenly you are old and would give the entire pile of cash you made just to get half your time back. Other folks worship different stuff that revolves around the self, and they are all just as bad. People wind up the same- wishing they could get that time back.

The funny thing is that the jesuits, franciscans, and buddhist monks don't have this problem when they hit 40. You have to figure out what you can depend on in life and what the real priority is. It's probably something bigger than you.

I just don't get it. It's impossible to go to an Eastern liberal arts school without reading Death of a Salesman, Great Expectations, Our Town, or Walden. Money and success may be nice to have, but you have to be delusional to think they are a priority. Us state school engineers can be forgiven to an extent since our required reading was mostly math books and maybe a thousand year old book or two if we were religious. But there's no point in spending an extra hundred grand on a liberal arts school if it doesn't help you.

10/25/11

Isn't the answer that the only things you can count on in life ate death and taxes?

10/25/11

And The Northwestern Mutual Insurance Group.

10/25/11

"Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you. "

wow

10/25/11

My personal experience is that the one guy who went to Yale from our school had his psychologist Dad diagnose him with ADD and got extended time on every exam. Daddy was also a headcase and got into a number of political battles about sports which included a slugfest with a coach at a little league game. A kid who got into Princeton got into a fight with a coach about relay placements at state and eventually had to switch schools after Mom and Dad gave the coach a nasty T-shirt in front of 50 members and parents on the team. He claimed the school "had a really good math program" as he was leaving, which we all found hilarious.

Not going to say the kids are liars or screwed up, but there are a lot of headcase parents out there. If we did a psychological screening on H/Y/P parents, my hunch is a good 10-20% of them would require commitment or at least some SERIOUS outpatient work. I honestly felt bad for the two going to Yale and Princeton. I'll take SANE parents with money for in-state tuition, thank you.

Thank God you don't have to deal with that to be successful on Wall Street. And thank God success and money are not foundational to our purpose in life.

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:

My personal experience is that the one guy who went to Yale from our school had his psychologist Dad diagnose him with ADD and got extended time on every exam. Daddy was also a headcase and got into a number of political battles about sports which included a slugfest with a coach at a little league game. A kid who got into Princeton got into a fight with a coach about relay placements at state and eventually had to switch schools after Mom and Dad gave the coach a nasty T-shirt in front of 50 members and parents on the team. He claimed the school "had a really good math program" as he was leaving, which we all found hilarious.

Not going to say the kids are liars or screwed up, but there are a lot of headcase parents out there. If we did a psychological screening on H/Y/P parents, my hunch is a good 10-20% of them would require commitment or at least some SERIOUS outpatient work. I honestly felt bad for the two going to Yale and Princeton. I'll take SANE parents with money for in-state tuition, thank you.

Thank God you don't have to deal with that to be successful on Wall Street. And thank God success and money are not foundational to our purpose in life.

LMAO. This is so goddamned true.

You want even worse than that? I went to one of those " elite small liberal arts schools." Those kids are the same stock as the nuttiest of the ivy leaguers but dumber. And usually more fucked up on drugs. That's where the black sheep that couldn't even get into Brown go.

10/25/11

Well, the kids who went were a little screwy and I could see how they might eventually turn into their parents, but nearly all of the shenanigans came from the adults. How do you tell your Dad not to start a lobbying campaign to get the coach fired so you can be a starter? How do you tell your parents not to sue the school because an AP US History teacher changed the final exam at the last minute? Some of these parents brought new meaning to the term "functional psychopathy", and the kids were almost as much the victims of the parents as the teachers, coaches, and administrators. The Princeton kid referenced above was known as "T-shirt guy" throughout the school for his last two months, and he was totalled mortified of what his parents had done all the while also trying to downplay it. Awkward situation trying to defend parents you love for doing something indefensible.

One of these guys married the daughter of a disgraced politician a few years ago. PPKs (Psycho-parented kids) seem to attract one another. Let's hope they've learned from their parents and can bring up healthier kids.

Also, there were a lot of kids that went to strong schools like MIT, Wharton, and Stanford who had sane parents and were relatively sane themselves. And most of the kids who wound up at the more normal Ivies like UPenn and Cornell were pretty chill and had pretty chill parents, though there were still a few nutjobs out there.

A lot of the stuff that went on was much bigger than the kids involved and it wasn't applicable everywhere. But the most memorable fiascos at my high school were driven by crazed parents desperately trying to get their kids into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just like Mommy or Daddy at any ethical, moral, or financial cost.

To the public at large- this is how many of the people who now run our government and financial system were created. And you thought The Manchurian Candidate was a silly fairy tale devoid of reality. Scared yet?

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Well, the kids who went were a little screwy and I could see how they might eventually turn into their parents, but nearly all of the shenanigans came from the adults. How do you tell your Dad not to start a lobbying campaign to get the coach fired so you can be a starter? How do you tell your parents not to sue the school because an AP US History teacher changed the final exam at the last minute? Some of these parents brought new meaning to the term "functional psychopathy", and the kids were almost as much the victims of the parents as the teachers, coaches, and administrators. The Princeton kid referenced above was known as "T-shirt guy" throughout the school for his last two months, and he was totalled mortified of what his parents had done all the while also trying to downplay it. Awkward situation trying to defend parents you love for doing something indefensible.

One of these guys married the daughter of a disgraced politician a few years ago. PPKs (Psycho-parented kids) seem to attract one another. Let's hope they've learned from their parents and can bring up healthier kids.

Also, there were a lot of kids that went to strong schools like MIT, Wharton, and Stanford who had sane parents and were relatively sane themselves. And most of the kids who wound up at the more normal Ivies like UPenn and Cornell were pretty chill and had pretty chill parents, though there were still a few nutjobs out there.

A lot of the stuff that went on was much bigger than the kids involved and it wasn't applicable everywhere. But the most memorable fiascos at my high school were driven by crazed parents desperately trying to get their kids into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just like Mommy or Daddy at any ethical, moral, or financial cost.

To the public at large- this is how many of the people who now run our government and financial system were created. And you thought The Manchurian Candidate was a silly fairy tale devoid of reality. Scared yet?

I don't know why this thread is evolving into discussions of schools.

People in the real world don't really care which school one went to. People could care less that you went to Harvard or a State U. That said, I know several people at Harvard right now who are struggling to make it to a first round interview from IBD. And, I know tons of people at Cornell who couldn't cut it in IBD. (myself included...)

I think the credited move is to go into accounting. I know many, many kids from second, third tier state schools (not even state flagship) who got nice cushy jobs at Big4, with minimal debt while they partied their high school and college years. I was literally shocked that my friend who graduated dead last in our high school with 22 on ACT went to a college that I've never heard of, he managed to get a job at PwC audit with 55k + bonus, after he sported a 3.5 GPA at his laughable directional state college.

My cousin graduated with 3.4 GPA in Econ from Princeton 2 years ago, but couldn't get any job out of OCR. He ultimately went to law school because he could not get any job at all, coming from Princeton. If one tries to attend an Ivy with the specific intent of scoring a banking job, I have some bad news for you: it may not be worth the debt, all the trouble, and the social sacrifices you are about to incur for 'marginally' better shot at a banking job. And, as some other posters indicated, OCR at target is competitive as shit. Even if some random dude with 24 ACT gets lucky and goes to Princeton, I doubt he will score a banking job just because he is at target.

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

10/25/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
IlliniProgrammer:

Well, the kids who went were a little screwy and I could see how they might eventually turn into their parents, but nearly all of the shenanigans came from the adults. How do you tell your Dad not to start a lobbying campaign to get the coach fired so you can be a starter? How do you tell your parents not to sue the school because an AP US History teacher changed the final exam at the last minute? Some of these parents brought new meaning to the term "functional psychopathy", and the kids were almost as much the victims of the parents as the teachers, coaches, and administrators. The Princeton kid referenced above was known as "T-shirt guy" throughout the school for his last two months, and he was totalled mortified of what his parents had done all the while also trying to downplay it. Awkward situation trying to defend parents you love for doing something indefensible.

One of these guys married the daughter of a disgraced politician a few years ago. PPKs (Psycho-parented kids) seem to attract one another. Let's hope they've learned from their parents and can bring up healthier kids.

Also, there were a lot of kids that went to strong schools like MIT, Wharton, and Stanford who had sane parents and were relatively sane themselves. And most of the kids who wound up at the more normal Ivies like UPenn and Cornell were pretty chill and had pretty chill parents, though there were still a few nutjobs out there.

A lot of the stuff that went on was much bigger than the kids involved and it wasn't applicable everywhere. But the most memorable fiascos at my high school were driven by crazed parents desperately trying to get their kids into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just like Mommy or Daddy at any ethical, moral, or financial cost.

To the public at large- this is how many of the people who now run our government and financial system were created. And you thought The Manchurian Candidate was a silly fairy tale devoid of reality. Scared yet?

I don't know why this thread is evolving into discussions of schools.

People in the real world don't really care which school one went to. People could care less that you went to Harvard or a State U. That said, I know several people at Harvard right now who are struggling to make it to a first round interview from IBD. And, I know tons of people at Cornell who couldn't cut it in IBD. (myself included...)

I think the credited move is to go into accounting. I know many, many kids from second, third tier state schools (not even state flagship) who got nice cushy jobs at Big4, with minimal debt while they partied their high school and college years. I was literally shocked that my friend who graduated dead last in our high school with 22 on ACT went to a college that I've never heard of, he managed to get a job at PwC audit with 55k + bonus, after he sported a 3.5 GPA at his laughable directional state college.

My cousin graduated with 3.4 GPA in Econ from Princeton 2 years ago, but couldn't get any job out of OCR. He ultimately went to law school because he could not get any job at all, coming from Princeton. If one tries to attend an Ivy with the specific intent of scoring a banking job, I have some bad news for you: it may not be worth the debt, all the trouble, and the social sacrifices you are about to incur for 'marginally' better shot at a banking job. And, as some other posters indicated, OCR at target is competitive as shit. Even if some random dude with 24 ACT gets lucky and goes to Princeton, I doubt he will score a banking job just because he is at target.

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

couldn't agree more

10/25/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

Fuck yeah, we have decent recruiting and we party hard! But seriously, UIUC is definitely a semi-target...I got first round interviews with a 3.4-3.5 GPA even without prior banking experience...this was last semester though. (btw, they were 2 top BBs, 1 solid MM, and few boutiques)

10/25/11
RonaldBacon:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

Fuck yeah, we have decent recruiting and we party hard! But seriously, UIUC is definitely a semi-target...I got first round interviews with a 3.4-3.5 GPA even without prior banking experience...this was last semester though. (btw, they were 2 top BBs, 1 solid MM, and few boutiques)

Took a semester off of school to live somewhere warm. Decided to go into IBD my 4th year. Accepted FT offer from the summer internship before school started. Crusin' the victory lap now.
-State School, College lives here

10/25/11

IP:

Why are you even languishing in finance? Go get a PhD for fun or start your own thing. That's my life and it makes it easy to make fun of bankers (associates and other people at the entry level) when you see them in person. They literally will have nothing to brag about, whether it's education or money or responsibility and you can be oh so condescending to them when they start to brag. I've started a few companies now, 1 in HS, 1 in college, 1 before grad school and 1 after. All four have been successes. It's really not hard and you'd be far more successful than me with your maturity, intellectual curiosity, aptitude, tact, and level-headedness.

Stanford was not like this. Many of the people I spent time with learned to read well and took advanced math at a young age, so they didn't really worry much in middle school and high school. They just enjoyed learning and were smart enough not to have to work from 6:00-1:00 with undue pressure like this somebody who's impressed with his introductory target degree and mediocre consulting/finance job.

But, of course, I did get rejected from Harvard. So I must suck.

I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.

10/25/11
MrDouche:

IP:

Why are you even languishing in finance? Go get a PhD for fun or start your own thing. That's my life and it makes it easy to make fun of bankers (associates and other people at the entry level) when you see them in person. They literally will have nothing to brag about, whether it's education or money or responsibility and you can be oh so condescending to them when they start to brag. I've started a few companies now, 1 in HS, 1 in college, 1 before grad school and 1 after. All four have been successes. It's really not hard and you'd be far more successful than me with your maturity, intellectual curiosity, aptitude, tact, and level-headedness.

Stanford was not like this. Many of the people I spent time with learned to read well and took advanced math at a young age, so they didn't really worry much in middle school and high school. They just enjoyed learning and were smart enough not to have to work from 6:00-1:00 with undue pressure like this somebody who's impressed with his introductory target degree and mediocre consulting/finance job.

But, of course, I did get rejected from Harvard. So I must suck.

Damn. It is tough being part of the so stupid that I have to work really hard to achieve anything group.

10/25/11

yeah maybe a little more work ethic would have brought the fat envelope from harvard for self declared genius

10/25/11

It's really not hard and you'd be far more successful than me with your maturity, intellectual curiosity, aptitude, tact, and level-headedness.

Haha, I started a business in high school selling web hosting- and it made enough to pay me a little more than minimum wage for 10-20 hours/week, but it was tough work and I wouldn't call it more than a modest success.

The world has a lot of challenges revolving around resources and energy over the next 30 years. I think I have something that can help with that, but it's going to cost half my savings to get to a prototype and tens of millions to implement. It's also a clunky and unsexy system and you can't patent an idea. I guess I suffer the bias of having worked in an extremely competitive and commoditized market. You as an individual are not an effective barrier to entry. You need patents or hundreds of millions in cash to build the barrier.

10/25/11

New thread title: the preftigious v. Too smart to care about preftige

10/25/11

Citi considers UIUC a target. GS sends recruiters out and takes 1-2 kids every year, but they send recruiters just about everywhere. Then there's RW Baird and William Blair as well as a number of hedge funds and prop shops. We also used to get Lehman and Merrill recruiters in Engineering.

It's clearly a respectable school, and if it got the same consideration from the BBs that NYU and Penn got, it would be a target school for Accy, Actuarial Science, Math, Physics, and Engineering.

Why are we talking about this anyways?

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Citi considers UIUC a target. GS sends recruiters out and takes 1-2 kids every year, but they send recruiters just about everywhere. Then there's RW Baird and William Blair as well as a number of hedge funds and prop shops. We also used to get Lehman and Merrill recruiters in Engineering.

It's clearly a respectable school, and if it got the same consideration from the BBs that NYU and Penn got, it would be a target school for Accy, Actuarial Science, Math, Physics, and Engineering.

Why are we talking about this anyways?

We still get BAML. Also, DB and Lazard both target UIUC as well. We have a couple going to Greenhill this year too.