Intern complaining about sexism in the office
I work at a BB and we don’t have a lot of women in the office (<10%). This past summer, we had a female intern who complained to HR that the office was sexist and misogynistic. She said that we made her feel unwelcome because we all hang out and excluded her. She complained that she deliberately got put on crap files because she was a woman. She also felt that the male interns got preferential treatment by MDs because they could bro out together for drinks or golf. She also said that it was terrible that there are no women in leadership positions at the bank. In the end, she declined a return because she said that there was no way she could work FT in this kind of environment. TBH, there is definitely some truth to what she was complaining about and it made me wonder what other banks are like for women. Is it really that bad? Do you guys think that your offices are sexist and misogynistic?
I find it hard/bordering on impossible to believe that women account for less than 10% of your office at a BB
I'm a guy, but if that's true than I wouldn't be surprised if she had a real case. Odds are this is fake
3-4 women at any given time out of about 50 guys is less than 10%. I hadn’t really considered why the women weren’t staying. My bank hires women but doesn’t take any steps to try to retain them so the pattern seems to be that they leave after about a year or two and they usually don’t get past analyst.
.
Here is my reality- I'm pretty much the only woman- ever. And in a larger gathering say 20-35 people there are never more than 3 of us.
I can understand that. I can feel this a bit in LO AM where I work (but quite honestly I think the location of my current company's headquarters specifically makes it difficult for women to want to join as well). I just moved into a new role within my company, and the team I was on previously (of ~7) had no other women besides myself.
That said, I still feel that in finance including both banking and LO AM that the proportion of women is greater than in tech or engineering. In my first internship as a control systems engineer, I was the only woman out of >50 working on a specific robot. At the entire ~300 person facility, it was literally just me and one other woman.
Have you worked in other areas and seen similar statistics?
agree - what fucking BB is this tone deaf - most BB's have gender quotas and openly talk about it for recruiting.
GS / JPM tend to get the best women because they have women in leadership roles and strong female recruitment pipelines (winning women). BAML / CS have decent gender numbers too. know the BB/EBs pay special fellowships to top-tier women and diversity candidates (typically post MBA)
as a counter, I guess DB and UBS are sausage fests bc nobody wants to work there? I know JPM takes undergrad women with 3.4-3.5 GPA from non target so I can see the weird / unwarranted attitude happening from some VPs and above.
Also a reason there historically have been minimal female VPs and above at Lazard. Pretty sure they took a lateral VP from CIBC or BMO because they had near zero female VPs across all groups
OP's a 1/10 troll
Yes, absolutely. Lateraled to an EB in an incredibly “bro” centered group and genuinely looked forward to it based on networking interactions. Once started, it’s honestly shocking to see how much of an impact group culture non-conducive to gender equality plays to my day to day, comfort level, relation, and subsequently performance from a purely professional level. Coming to the group really, really made me understand, for the first time ever, the weight of gender in the workplace— like most people (both male & female) we tend to not take the lectures on gender considerations in the workplace as seriously (due to repetition & excitement/optimism of being a new banker). Again, I myself am a woman and somewhat brushed it off as an impactful factor to consider … which, 6 months in, I deeply regret. I had to come to this conclusion the hard way.
Feeling this is a controversial(?) and brushed off topic with different impressions, so this account is from my own experience & aimed towards women in finance. Ladies, when considering a group, be hyper-aware of the following whilst networking:
These are all things I wish I more heavily considered when lateraling and attending group networking events.. in retrospect, it should have been blatant that this group I was recruiting was not conducive of a gender balanced workplace, to a excessive degree.
Again, finance in itself is super male dominated and at some point in your career you will recognize the status you inherit as a woman in the industry (e.g. do NOT blindly believe the “oh honestly it doesn’t matter / I never notice” response to being a woman in finance). Finance is not and has never has been gender-agnostic. However, I cannot reiterate that while this is the status quo, some groups are just plain toxic and isolating for young female professionals. At the end of the day, finance is a relationship business and the keyword is relation: if a group’s ultra masculine culture makes it so it’s extremely difficult to relate / mesh well, despite personal efforts, it’s not gonna be a fun time. If your group is run by dudes with God complexes and junior members see their demanding jobs as a standard measure of manliness, it’s not gonna be a fun time. If the group in general is extremely apathetic (yes, I believe women tend to be more emphatic in nature), is really not gonna be a fun time. I have many girlfriends in finance who are in groups with a minority % of women, and their experiences are extremely different from mine. As a junior, you must be comfortable with communicating with your team—whether that’s for asking help, networking internally, forming your professional branding, or just general day-to-day to make your life in banking suck less.
I’ve been in my group for six months now and honestly, it was extremely difficult. I’m grateful for the deal experience and strength of the group but god did it suck to go to work. I have learned a lot, dealt with many unstable personalities, dealt with having the extra hoop of “proving myself”, learned a ton about civility, dealt with many many micro aggressions (rarely will it be macro— always persistent micros… almost everyday. Considering that you spend most of your day / analyst life with these people… take that as you will). I have my PE offer and will be departing at end of year.
Biggest lesson learned: I now understand why most major wars / conflicts have been waged by (selfish) men.
Damn, are there any senior women you’ve been connected with at the firm?
Two pretty insightful posts here, yours and the other.
Tone and culture are set at the top, but propagated in the levels below. As a VP, I have no say or influence on how the "people upstairs" conduct themselves, but I sure as shit can set the tone in the bullpen. I thought I was doing ok until a recent conversation with one of my associates. It's quite upsetting and I refuse to have anyone who works for me feel that way.
With that context, I put it back to you to ask what someone at my level could do to foster more professionalism. Setting aside the bare minimum like calling out misogynistic or off color humor type (all our senior bankers have daughters, that shit is not tolerated), what else?
Deleted.
Here's what you do: assign work fairly- don't give women all the admin crap- invite everyone to the conversation so that the playing field is level. These simple things- especially the sharing of information is how to fight sexism most effectively.
Hi- OP of above comment thread replying to your comment here rabbit:
Before getting to answering your question, I do commend you taking initiative and acknowledging that such a problem may exist in your current group. Honestly, if my VP/Staffer/any mid-level banker asked me directly (and subsequently made bona fide efforts) it would have made a world of a difference. Extending my gratitude for your consideration; accepting status quo, particularly when you're in the unaffected group, is much easier than implementing change.
This list is brief but I hope helpful. Point points is to 1. align yourself with female professional 2. inquire w/in female perspectives 3. take initiatives yourself, within scope of your firm's culture and the persistent gender issues at play. Happy to DM you should you have additional qs.
1) What changes would you propose to improve women's experience on those firms (or at minimum at your firm)?
2) Would you consider those changes to be realistic?
3) How would you implement those changes if you were in a senior management role?
Has it ever occurred to you that blanket statements / views like yours may be part of the reason? A little bit more self-awareness wouldn't hurt.
I am saying this as a male, btw.
Shut up intern. Don't tell me how much deal flow I can bring in. I've already brought in more than you will ever achieve.
Lol at you throwing around the word misogyny which literally means hatred of women. Yea it’s a bit tougher if you’re not part of the majority I’ve seen it too I’m a URM didn’t grow up in the us and don’t watch or care about any American sports but this is like extreme hyperbole unless you’re at some backwater firm operating like the 60s. Lol at micro aggressions also what did people ask you why you looked tired the day you weren’t wearing makeup? Literally if you just grind and kill it nobody cares about anything else
Deleted
The point about female attrition:
- while I agree it may be partly based to culture (which is hard to assess as a male and I’m sure it may be harder for females to bear up with the bro culture although I haven’t seen it so cannot really comment) - although for the communication style within your group, I definitely believe it can make your experience worse as a female but believe it is not just man/woman-wise and could impact some men just as much - basically culture is key for everyone…;
- It probably is also due to the fact that on average women typically don’t want to sacrifice their health for work as much as men due to 1) hormones (I’ll get MS for that but it’s true) 2) you basically cannot have a family and see your children as an investment banker - this is also why less females apply to banking in the first place… and I don’t blame them.
Yes, this is true. In my experience it’s easier for males even as interns to get along with other males in the office. For example we would have male interns go up to associates and VPs and even higher be like “hey man. Lets get coffee or a drink”. Whereas a female is not able to pull that off especially as an intern because it’s not like the interns do real work where the work can speak for itself. But yes I have seen it happen all around me. The guys have a bro code but the girls don’t have a girl code and don’t just go up to others and be like “hey girl let’s do this”. I just thought that since majority of the office is males it is easier for them to connect. My group had about 20 or so males mds and 2 females. AN1 were split bw gender. But after that as you kept going up the chain female numbers diminished.
Damn this thread is fairly eye opening to how relatively gender equal my bank is. I'm on deals with multiple female senior bankers including a great MD and there are women on all my clients' exec teams. So the effect is every meeting I've dialed into as an analyst included women and was at least partially led by them. It definitely contributes to a calmer more PC vibe in the office, though. At my old bank we'd really shoot the shit all day but here the rapport is a little muted. I don't really care either way since my class gets out on weekends to blow off steam regardless.
Exactly. Sure, I support gender equality in the workplace but get ready to have a lot less fun.
Don’t know why you get monkey shit but this is 100% true. Sounds like a workplace for pussies
I don't support gender equality but agree that it definitely makes the workplace less fun
Where do you work and are they hiring?
This why you avoid hiring girls (and guys) who put pronouns in their LinkedIn. They're fucking nut jobs who ruin everything and put up stinks to HR all in the name of eQuALiTy
Did the girl OP said complained have pronouns on her linkedin?
What do you think?
Hey, unsure if you’re a guy or if insecurity / loneliness is even the crux of this mindset. In case that’s what’s behind it, tho, know you’re not alone - this is a studied phenomenon that we all need to get better at helping each other with. Maybe this can be a first step if relevant: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-highlight/23323556/men-friendship-…
Apologies if this doesn’t apply.
Lol what mindset? I have no clue how you jumped such a huge logic bridge. Just because I said woke NPC retards ruin workplace culture? I'm all for an inclusive environment and non-toxic culture. Don't have any tolerance for people that want to report people to HR for unsubstantiated claims of sExIsm and mIsoGynY. I have no clue why I got so much MS in my original comment. To be fair, I didn't really read the post besides the title, so maybe there was some validity to the intern's complaints. In that case, maybe I'm wrong. These days tho girls complain everything is sexist, so it's hard to separate what's legit and what's exaggeration.
Be honest, what do you do successfully?
Deleted
I feel for you, but for me as a guy I tend to relate to other guys better than with girls/women, which makes it easier to strike up casual conversations with guys. On the flip side, I tend to be more polite around women, however that comes with a certain distance.
Recently for example, a fellow intern and I were reading about ETF’s when we encountered some mention of companies in the Adult entertainment industry which led us both to laugh. Something small like that adds up over time and makes it easier to get along with somebody, whereas it would have never slid with a female colleague, and probably would have been deemed as harassment or worse.
Lol you guys should see the Real Estate world (REPE, IS, Cap markets). It's not just ALL men in front office gigs but it's ALL WHITE males. I'm not complaining about it at all but I guess minorities and or women aren't interested in Real Estate. I swear I'm the only Middle Eastern dude in CRE.
I don't mind getting more women on teams. The problem is that the moment women enter the room, that almost always means less fun for guys. It's precisely the things we enjoy joking about that women get most offended by. I would rather work on a 100% male team and have a good time than a gender equal team where I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. Might get MS for this but I think a lot of guys feel this way.
Deleted
Hmm maybe that is why for the last hundred thousand years men and women tended to socialize separately? Guys don't want to hang out with 10 females either most of the time. Why do people just refuse to accept that this is the natural condition of people?
I hate that many women are made to feel this way.
While I can't say I understand what it is like to face this as a woman, I am bisexual, so I get the feeling of ostracization on the Street.
With that in mind, and for better or for worse, I have only ever run into issues when I did not culturally conform. The bro environment clearly has its flaws, and there are certainly a lot of jokes thrown my way, but so long as I just roll with the punches and throw jokes back I have noticed I never face genuine homophobia (at least at the junior level, it seems the more senior the staff the more likely they are to be discriminatory, which I believe is a generational issue), just endearing remarks that are clearly light-hearted and not intended for me to take seriously. The work is still hell, but the people are fun so long as I conform to the humor.
When I do so, I get preferable deal placement and I am not overworked (well, at least not more than anyone else), and overall I have built some incredible relationships in that environment.
That said, I certainly get that there is a difference between being an LGBT male in that environment, and being a female in that environment. There is an entirely different set of issues and lived experiences to be acknowledged, but I have noticed that the women who respond to joking insults in kind are typically treated as equals, while those who become offended are not.
The message I am trying to send here is that some bro environments are toxic, and some are just brotherly, with all the tough love that comes with it. An environment that is toxic towards women should not be tolerated, but sometimes people mistake conformity-valuing environments for masculinity-valuing ones and thus believe their sex to be the issue when in reality they simply don't act in line with the culture.
I should note I am not justifying high-conformity environments, I am simply stating that while some are genuinely awful, others are navigable. I might get MS for this, but I simply wanted to communicate my personal reflection on the issue, and I wish you the best of luck.
Totally agree
I get where you’re coming from. I feel like as long as the women/men are not the ones that make cringy TikTok videos but rather actually work and enjoy/suffer the camaraderie with their fellow jr bankers in the trenches. I’m totally cool with it
Damn what the heck do y’all talk about lmao. Feel like gender mix always elevates the fun but everyone’s different I guess
Are you a man or a woman?
That's because you probably say/behave in a way you shouldn't so it feels like walking on eggshells because you can get called out on your bs at any point I time.
The ideal scenario is to work with chicks that aren’t woke retards. That’s when there’s no fun. But all these Ivy League chicks are brainwashed and on a massive high horse.
Would still prefer the first scenario but if it’s not that then I rather work with 100% men.
Only rational person in this thread. It's either mostly girls in the thread or guys simping and thinking they're going to get laid by talking about how men are pigs and lead to the oppression of women. One of my friends in the bank would make Trump jokes (repeat funny things he says or speak in his accent) and you could tell this one leftist chick would get extremely uncomfortable. No actual political takes were said by the way, just jokes. It was hilarious, but you could tell she would get a little upset or go quiet when he made them. She was pretty chill about it though compared to what I expected. It didn't affect her workplace relationships with us, and I'm pretty sure she never reported us to HR. I can deal with that.
It's when girls start spouting off progressive nonsense like gun control during group lunches that nobody wants to associate with them. Just be chill and do your job well, and I guarantee dudes will like working with you, even if you're a women. Keep your politics or social opinions out of the workplace. It's not that complicated. Guys just don't want a fucking PC place where woketards are openly talking about gender pronouns or calling every little thing in the world a result of the patriarchy/oppression. Or saying dumbing shit like tOxIc mAsCuLinItY and mEnTaL hEaLtH.
the kind of comments under this thread is precisely the reason why this post existed
What are you talking about lol? I don’t know how immature you guys are/what kind of jokes you are making, but if you just talking about your tinder dates and stuff like that, I don’t see the issues. If girls get offended because you joke a bit about sleeping with a girl last weekend, it’s their problem, not your. Both of you guys’ fault for making it awkward.
If you’re talking about heavily racist / super mysogenist comments to the point it is unacceptable in the workplace, then don’t make those comments in public in the workplace..
Those are exactly the comments they're talking about. I know plenty of these guys. Conservative/non-PC humor is just code for racist and sexist shit. They love being racist but hate being called racist, because "it's just a joke bro". When a woman is in the room they feel attacked because they can't spend the next hour saying AOC is a cunt that deserves to be raped or something else stupid.
The issue is that a lot of guys feel this way, that the jokes you want to make at the expense of other people means they are the problem and not you. The best jokes are the ones everyone can laugh at. Tbh if you feel like you're walking on eggshells every time you talk to a woman in the room your probably a part of the reason there's not a lot of women in the room
What jokes do you want to make ?
Also, are you saying that you are unhappy at work because there are too many women to make fun of the women you work with ? Lol.
If your whole point is that young kids are u happy because they are extremely immature, then it may be a good idea to man up and be more mature ? However if the point is that you don’t feel comfortable about talking about your tinder dates in front of women, it’s your problem. Be a man and stop whining about it.. there are bigger problems in the world than feeling bad about making inappropriate gossips at in workplace - worst case you don’t make them out loud and speak more quietly
Also, come on. You uncomfortable having women in the office ? Don’t be ridiculous.
I'm not trying to knock you by any means, I get it. What in the world do you guys talk about at the office that you need to avoid around women?
Like I've worked under ex-Salomon, DLJ, Gordon (Canadian heads will know) types and even they've never had this issue. This group has talked about how they're happy to see more professionalism in the office.
Maybe I'm just old man, I don't get it.
Sadly this is 100% true. When it's just the guys hanging out, we rarely have to filter ourselves. No one is deliberately sexist / mean / etc but even just some good natured ribbing that guys do appears to be 'toxic' to women. 40% of topics (the most fun ones) have to be removed from the equation when a woman joins and the general group dynamic just becomes less fun
I'm not blaming women here, but this is just the facts. I've noticed it on many, many occasions
Too bad for you, this is not a reason not to hire females. You’re at work not at a frat party
Facts
Very true, when women join the culture just gets shittier. Not as fun a place to work anymore, and when you're having less fun you're going to do worse work. Not that any work will be fun 100% of the time, but it 60% fun becomes 30% fun when you can't joke around anymore because women will take offense this massively degrades the experience you have at work
Any male who downvoted this is a beta soy boy or just brain dead. Nothing against women obv & they're just as capable as men in the workplace, but culturally when you have more women this will make the culture deteriorate. You lose so many things to talk about (sports, getting laid, etc) or at very least you have to tone down anything by at least 50%
This is 100% true. Having more women on your team or group means a less enjoyable, more sterile and soulless workplace almost as a rule. Camaraderie is one of the things that makes this job tolerable and women can negatively impact that. Exceptions for women who can “hang” with the guys, but that takes a certain type of personality. Those women get treated as pure peers (or friends) and avoid the chilling “eggshell” effect.
As a minority guy, lots of good points made by reasonable women here and starting to see things from your perspective. Not exactly the same thing, but I sympathize as the ethnic/cultural minority experience is somewhat parallel when you walk into an office where 90% of people (men & women) are white and share certain backgrounds. I don't think any of this is intentional, but as OP points out would fit into "micro" agitations. Like talking about super expensive vacation destinations their family "has a house on" and it seems the jewish girls/guys all have some childhood connections going all the way back from NJ/NY (I know, jewish is also a minority but we all know this is not how it works in finance).
I had a great balanced experience in my first IB job where my group class had a 50/50 gender split. We all hung out together and the guys rarely excluded the girls from any nights out. But I think this only worked because the girls were willing to let it loose - we talked casual dating/sex, getting blacked out, talked sh*t about senior bankers, etc to bond with each other. We would all go out to dinners and bars and absolutely get bombed (a few different pairs eventually hooked up). I like to think it was a good experience for the girls (now I gotta ask them) but I wonder if they were doing something uncomfortable for themselves to fit in. But I honestly don't think so.
Subsequently, I've worked in mostly male-dominated groups on the buyside. And especially white male dominated. The environment was noticeably different and the few women in the office seemed to reserve themselves into a more quiet/proper/overly professional role. There was zero female voice at the top, although a few MDs that were considered stars. This was overall a stifling experience for even myself who as a guy got invited to all the bro-ey stuff outside the office. It wasn't particularly raunchy, even the guy culture there was pretty stuffy. I think this was more of a function of me graduating from an "analyst class" peer group to a broader, older age demographic team. Most of the 30+ guys just wanted to go home and talk about their kids (just stop).
This experience made me realize how special I had it with my IB class group. Still good friends with all of them, but naturally hang out with them less. I'm sorry for some of the women here that were not as fortunate and sounds like got placed in more of the latter culture. What I've noticed is, it's usually the boomer/stunted maturity/balding guys with zero integrity (proud to cheat on wife, etc) that perpetuate a form of misogynistic culture by openly bringing up topics that women find uncomfortable. Most of the time, these are not the guys on the fast track or widely respected members of the team. Just some people who hung around forever, probably has some personal/professional frustrations and insecurities where their only outlet is trying to assert dominance in their misguided ways at work. I think for the most part the 20s/30s guys avoid these topics when unprompted, but once someone lets loose and makes it "ok" to be this way in a work setting, it unleashes even some of the younger guys who's stuck in their frat glory days to participate. On the women's part though, it is kind of annoying when someone seemingly gets offended by every little thing and are self-righteous and not let others be themselves. I tended to avoid these women at work even though I have nothing against hanging out with them. I do think it helps to be willing to be "chill" (I know, horrible term but for lack of better expression) even though whatever is being said is not agreeable with you. Just let others be others, you don't have to subscribe to their views. I think it helps to form alliances with reasonable guys who are also part of the "in-group" and try to be the girl that rallies the other women in the office to participate and have fun together. I think most younger/mid-level men in the office are not necessarily misogynistic by nature.
I didn’t read your long ass text but hope your attempt for pussy works
Thanks dog. Gotta shoot shots.
Wtf does being Jewish have to do with anything here? I'm Jewish in IB and my firm is maybe, at most, 10% Jewish (likely among the highest in the industry).
That’s atypical. Have worked in groups at major firms that are >50% jews + asians + indians. Rest usually being wasps and maybe 0-2 blacks/hispanics
thats GS lol
Did she, with zero notice, conduct a performance review with all the analysts and told them they have “performance issues” before bonus?
She got laid with zero notice: from the MD himself in his office
Some comments here- I bet with great insight. I've been in the industry for 20+ years. I have one word for you: hell. It's absolute maddening hell full of sexist shit.. maybe when I'm not so tired I'll answer with real stuff as this is a good question and what your intern mentioned was real world things that happen to women in banking and it's a huge issue.
You come off like EXACTLY the type of woman that makes people not want to work with women. All of your posts here reek of the woke corporate girl boss language - like you talked about this in school or read articles about it on the Atlantic or are active on woke twitter. You attend women’s conferences where you’re told how tough it is to be a woman in banking. You were told by woke media and woke professors how things would be in the world and wow, wouldn’t you know it! That’s exactly what you experienced. And now you want to tell everyone.
The women I’ve worked with in finance who blended in well with the culture and were well liked got along because they DIDN’T come off like they’ve spent the last few years steeped in a culture of victimhood.
Surprised but not shocked by comments like not fun to work with females. First - you’d not want your sister, gf / wife treated that way at their work. Second, we mostly want good people to work with, not drink with.
this line doesn't really work on guys in the same way it does on girls like at all, unless you are a father with only daughters or something
So you would want your mom/sister/girlfriend treated like that? Aight incel
This is tone deaf. We are in the age of women. The age of men is over. Firms try desperately to hire, promote women even over 1st / 2nd gen immigrants. No hate men had it good since the dawn of humanity so I get why there’s some spreading of the wealth. Comical to read some 22 year old’s example of why they don’t feel “super comfortable and stuff” when the winds are so strongly blowing in their direction overall
Sure women are getting hired. But they aren’t being retained and it’s still a male-dominated profession. It’s primarily men in positions of power making decisions. Until there is equal representation of women at all levels of leadership, there is no way that you can possible say that the age of men is over.
It's just a matter of time at this point. More women graduating college, strong diversity programs placing women into top roles, more women-owned businesses and senior executives/board members.
Females are leaving because the hours suck and you can’t have a family working so much.. for that matter, men are hardly staying either
“Equal representation” in any job is a total joke imo. If 3x more males than females apply, would would you hire a 50% ratio? It clearly does not bring the best talent. I am clearly for equal OPPORTUNITY but against equal representation if the pool of applicants are not equal. At equal talent, you will hopefully have the same opportunities. But this is clearly not the case, eg my firm has a 50% female hiring policy and promoting females that are less than competent
Also it’s funny how everyone talks about equal representation in positions of power but never heard that for bricklayers or garbage collectors.
Lol this is brain dead....it's happening, just not as fast as you'd like. Fun fact, 60% of college is made up of females (40% males). Graduation is even crazier, where nearly 2 out of 3 graduates are women. Women will eventually dominate the workplace in 30+yrs so just be happy with that instead of complaining so much
Lol firms are hiring women because of woke ideology granting them a large structural advantage in most fields that actually matter.
They work for a few years and then quit or go leave to a less painful field. This is true for finance, law, consulting, computer science, engineering. In spite of massive structural advantages around hiring and promotion.
The upper end of prestige fields will always be dominated by men because men self select into them and are more willing to sacrifice other aspects of life to focus on their career. The point here isn’t “haha women suck”, the point is that they’re making different choices
This is pretty interesting. I hadn’t thought about this really until a few months into my job. I work in real estate debt originations at a large bank so it is a bit differnet as it’s much smaller than M&A teams. But, out of all the originators (director level and above), there are absolutely no women across all offices. Like there are probably 20 originators across the country, and none are women. Commercial real estate is even more of a boys club than IB sometimes so it makes sense, but I still find it pretty nuts that there are no women in those high-earning origination roles.
Me and my fellow analyst (male as well) were talking about it, and I honestly feel like our bosses just don’t interview women. We haven’t had a woman on our team in 8 years according to my LinkedIn searches. I feel like we could hire a woman but she would need thick skin with the types of jokes the MDs like to make. Idk I just think it speaks to the underlying culture across finance. Very male dominated by nature.
I'm actually very interested in this role but am a woman. Can you tell me why women don't get hired into this type of role? Is it the hours? How is the pay? Any advice for me or other women. Thanks!
I think my write-up may have been a bit misleading. I am not extrapolating my group/firm's hiring process on the entire industry/role as a whole. I know a lot of women in debt originations roles that do very well. I am just saying that the male-oriented culture and boys club has become a subconscious precedent when it comes to hiring. I think men in finance tend to be on the fratty side, especially the ones who have been in the industry for a long time, so it is difficult to change an entire culture from the bottom up. Culture is cultivated from the top down. I don't think there is a specific reason for women not being hired much. There a lot of varying reasons, for example: the clients (REPE / REITs) are mostly male as well, so the instinct is to hire a man because they will get along better with the clients. Also, this isn't always true but there are many more men than women shooting for these types of roles. It's definitely not the hours or anything work related, it's all culture. The pay is very good, will PM you the pay if you turn off anonymity.
If you are a woman, I would say my best piece of advice is to get comfortable being social with men. It would be difficult to integrate a woman into our group if she was quiet and reserved. I think it's essential in this industry to be well-rounded; being smart and hard-working is important, but so is being social and fun to be around. My group attends plenty of happy hours in the city and I have found that all the women I have met at these happy hours are social and talkative. I would be happy to PM you (turn off anonymity) if you need more advice/guidance.
As a female summer intern in a more male-dominated coverage group, I cannot agree more with some of the things that are being said here. The work is tough, yes, but the amount of mental stress I get from not being able to blend in/connect well with most of the male full-timers due to the aforementioned "male get along much better with male" was much more anxiety-inducing than the long hours or the work itself. I can't help but feel ignored and helpless when for example almost all the male bankers come around to the intern area to just exclusively talk to the male interns and they seem to have become really good bros in such a short amount of time while I was still figuring out the ways to approach them. I also became frustrated when I repeatedly asked for more meaningful work from staffer but the male intern sitting behind me was put on something new because a male analyst asked him to be on his deal and I was not approached by any at all because I just can't seem to build that rapport with them. I also have to quickly adapt to the drinking culture in order to be a better "fit" for the group. The few female analysts/asso in the group have expressed similar things about them not being respected as equally/their work not as appreciated/the guys went out drinking themselves and they were left out...In the end I still got feedback about being too shy but honestly I tried my best (what is wrong with being shy/reserved? with the culture I grew up in reservedness is a virtue) The sexism never comes explicitly; our group even hosted some events for female bankers in the group to talk about this issue LMAO. The seniors do seem to care about this at least on a surface level but such implicit sexism/subconscious bias is hard/impossible to eradicate. imo having a balanced gender ratio from junior to senior level is the first step that shld be taken
No, it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily say 50/50 men women. The best candidates should be hired regardless of everything else. I understand that it might be difficult (and the analysts should def be trying harder to make a connection with you), but at some point it falls on you to figure out common ground and connect to the analysts. So many guys walk on eggshells around girls they don't know because any joke, compliment or even conversation can be "harassment" today, depending on the craziness of the complainant (girl in this scenario).
Based. If anything, 50/50 is unfair. You can't just go off a basic equal gender split. You have to go based on the proportion of people applying. If the application pool is 70% men and 30% women, then that would make the most sense for a split. Going 50/50 in that case would undermine men and give women more spots just for the sake of having a vagina. Like you said though, banks should just focusing on hiring the most qualified individuals and look closely at fit. Don't worry about some bullshit gender ratio. There's a reason banks focus on cultural fit heavily in order to avoid toxic individuals from ruining everything.
Nothing wrong with being reserved if that's in your culture. I'm from Asia as well. Unfortunately or fortunately, in American culture being assertive is FAR more important. It's definitely a culture shock and I sympathize, but if you plan on living in America and want a stellar career then you have to do what it takes to blend in. Sucks in some ways but that's the nature of the beast I suppose
As a guy, I’ve had experience working in a team with even men/women ratio for a couple years, it was by far the best/least psycho culture in banking that I’ve seen, compared to the usual sausage party groups. I really thought about it and it was mostly due to women MD/VPs having families/kids which I think took slight edge off them and made our team’s culture so much better. Guys with families were still dicks, same with 30+ women without kids. I think women generally are more empathetic which fosters better culture.
Can confirm. Interned at a top BB in a large group this summer where 90% of the group was male but most of the interns were female. It is a male club that is very tough to navigate as a woman especially when you don't have any credentials as to why people should even care about you. We were seen as entertainment; it took me a while to realise but I did learn to play the game eventually. The only way I could get staffings or help was to essentially flirt with my analysts and associates so that they would pick me over the other interns. Throughout the week they would mostly ignore us and talk to the male interns but when it came time for team drinks and clubbing the female interns were always the top priority. I would dress up super well every day and always look my best and that definitely played a part as to why the team liked me more than some of the other interns.
I could get some of them fired over the comments they said throughout the summer but never said anything because in the end that is how you play the game. Yes, it is completely unfair and demoralising and not a sustainable method in the longer term but I think this was the only way to succeed in my group. The job itself was nothing compared to the politics and challenges presented by the gender dynamics. Will not be going back and overall I am very glad that I got to see the true nature of banking as before the internship I was definitely naive and thought that there would not be any issues with gender equality 2022.
Just a note to all some of male analysts/associates out there: I am sure you know it as well but in the real world there is no way that the super attractive female interns would be hanging out with you when you behave like that.
Pop off with the last sentence queen
Oh yasss queen you're beautiful the way you are even if you're a whale like Lizzo. Body positivity all the way!
Sounds to me like you were supporting the "game," maybe even enjoying the attention. How about find ways to impress based on merit and speaking up a little instead of sex appeal?
How can you impress anyone as an intern when you do not even get the opportunities? Reached out to the staffer and almost everyone I could think of but nothing came out of before I started doing that
Based
What the fuck did I just read. You serious?
This is not a place you want to work. They'll never let you get ahead.
Yes I could care less about the prestige at this point the experience was so dehumanising. The couple of women in the team would generally just stick to themselves and try to do their work quietly & most of them had left for other groups
Lmao really? This is what happens when you get hired off a diversity quota and then attempt to "flirt" your way into staffings
Edit: Women, diversity hires and soft guys MSing
Totally get what you're saying. I didn't go the flirting route but I probably should have. The guys I worked with were super awkward and nerdy and never made an effort to talk to me. People liking you... for whatever reason... really goes a long way. Hang in there <3
OH. MY. GOD. Just finished an internship at a BB in London and felt the exact same way. It was also weird as hell listening to Nazi jokes and hearing about how the area you grew up in is apparently a 'shithole slum', but somehow escaping direct contempt as a minority because you rode the flirtatious energy of male Analysts and Associates - the cognitive dissonance is wild...
Honestly this thread has been the best thing I have read the entire summer, it seems that this just is the culture in finance. I thought I was the only one struggling with this as the other female interns never said anything but now I understand it is an industry-wide phenomenon but we are all just scared to speak up
I'm a white preppy male from CT who's worked at banks with "fratty" cultures and honestly, I find the way the older men act pathetic. I can't tell if the MDs think they're impressing us by making sexist jokes and saying things like "Woah, she sounds hot" to us when on conference calls but it's just weird. I've been really shocked by the immaturity of senior men at the firms I've worked at. You can tell they've been losers they're whole life but are now "second time cool" - so act like a college student would and assume people like me would be receptive
There are a lot of really sad people in finance and my guess is the sexist men mentioned above are actually intimidated by women / or don't like women. Additionally, many of these senior dudes "work" all the time, but for some it seems like they're just avoiding their families! I've seen it on numerous occasions, older men joke about missing anniversaries/kids birthdays. Almost like it's cool to miss occasions like that to work on a dumb pitch!! The job isn't just their careers but also their social lives - so many are more comfortable with the "boys club"
Lmao so you’re second time lame? Kids in college / coming out of college sound so lame today wow couldn’t be me. You’re very wrong homie. The works has massively changed in the last 10 years. Y’all gen z really destroyed culture sad to see it
Agreed. I apologize for my retarded generation that is full of pussies who want to focus their entire purpose and existence on bullshit issues like dudes chopping off their dicks and demanding everyone call them she/her.
Lol the avoiding their families apart is so true there are definitely married asso in my group who hung around in the office late at night for nothing
Most senior woman in my group is a second year associate. It’s pathetic.
This job is basically impossible unless you’re willing to be a shitty parent and men just have an easier time doing that, particularly the terrible and insecure people this industry tends to attract (the responses in this thread for example).
And if anyone saw in Dealbook this morning. Again - it’s a well known issue. I’m just shocked to think I might have analysts in our team who might think like kids above
Goldman’s ‘boys club’ culture to go on trial
Yesterday, 1,400 current and former Goldman Sachs executives and associates suing the bank for gender bias published unsealed records that shed new light on their claims that an illegal “boys club” culture pervades there. The suit claiming pay and performance discrimination was filed in 2010, and is set to go to trial in June in a New York federal court.
It “is an important moment for understanding issues women have been raising at the company and hearing their voices directly,” Kelly Dermody, a partner at Lieff Cabraser, which is coleading the plaintiffs’ case with Outten & Golden, told DealBook. Goldman did not respond to a request for comment.
Judging company culture. In court documents, one woman said that it was “widely known” an unnamed managing director is “inappropriate toward young women,” and that left her “terrified of being with him alone.” In all, 133 Goldman staff members — from the firm’s investment banking, investment management and securities divisions — reported incidents of discrimination, sexual harassment and assaults, retaliation and more. The case covers claims of discrimination beginning in 2002. The women also said that male managers organized trips to strip clubs and golf gatherings deliberately to exclude women. In addition, they claim managers “engage in gender stereotyping, sexual harassment, and/or gender favoritism,” including in performance evaluations.
This has whole thread has been pretty eye opening and I'm coming around to what you just said, that I might have juniors like this.
I do have some strong opinions about golf.....hot take but it's something we need less of in the industry.
I know that people are not necessarily doing this on purpose, but when you have a golf outing associated with a conference for example, you immediately exclude a bunch of the women or anyone who didn't grow up playing golf (i.e. people from lower social economics or minorities simply uninterested in the sport). It's hard to beat around the bush that it's anything other than a hobby for upper middle class and above white dudes.
I’m an ethnic minority who didn’t play golf and dgaf bc I’m not a pussy. Just drink mess around on the course and do well.. that’s really it
Or we can do another activity everyone can enjoy....there's that option too. For example, instead of a golf outing, have everyone go to a baseball game before a conference and get suites. I've seen that option. Much easier for everyone to enjoy.
I have the same stance on golf, absolutely dislike it. Honestly though, it's a pretty fucking effective tool with clients.
They're essentially trapped with you in a super relaxing environment. You have 18 holes on a beautiful day, booze flowing, zero interruptions and undivided attention. I find people drop their guard and are generally more open and receptive.
Dude STFU. I'm a minority and I've learned to play golf just fine. Jesus, you make good comp if you work in finance. Spend 2 months taking lessons to play golf passably, this is NOT exclusionary. What a moronic take
That's great for you. Or we can do some other activity that doesn't necessitate busy people taking 2 months of lessons just so that they can be passable at something that they're not even interested in doing.
And you're right, this industry does have good comp, but not a lot of free time. Even if I wanted to, I simply don't have the time with family and career to become proficent at golf at this point. This is the case for a lot of people who didn't grow up playing it.
Side note: Also, just the thought of peer pressuring women in particular to take months of golf lessons just so they can hang with "the boys" is fucking cringe. They shouldn't need to do that to participate in company and industry social events.
Half the men these days are scared to speak to women in their personal lives. This bleeds into the workplace so that probably feeds into why they barely speak to you guys in the office. They don’t even know what to say to you guys half the time as far as chill/normal conversations go. The dudes who have cordial/friendly relationships with the women at the office that go beyond “how was your weekend?” are almost always the guys who are around women the most outside of work
At OP, is there true to what you/she said--> yes. Can this industry be at times sexist--> also yes. Are there some men who are basically idiots and do dumb things or don't know how to act properly or create a bad work environment-->also, yes.
Couple things to remember though:
1. I get sexism, not saying this wasn't sexism. But sometimes people want to play a card of "this happened to me becuase i'm _______", when in reality, they're just not good. It would be like if you were a 5'4" 380lb white guy who doesn't make the NBA. You could say its because you're white, but also more likely that you're short, slow, not strong, and not good at basketball.
2. Think if five women who were friends in college went to a nice fine dining brunch, and they could invite a sixth person. The choice was another girl they were friendly with from college, or a guy who they really didn't know who had completely different interest from them, doesn't really know what brunch is/what the items on the menu are, and doesn't dress properly for the restaurant. Now they had to do this brunch every morning, for 4 hours. Who do you think they would choose? This is how work is, you want to work with people you at least would get along with.
3. Banking is hard. Most fields that people in this entire forum are in are difficult. Not saying women can't do them, but we have to acknowledge that not only do woman most likely do more in terms of the homefront work on average, they also just have more to think about (as outlayed above). And I don't just mean having kids, I mean day to day. What they wear, how they look, on average, woman think more about that. Just off the bat, woman usually wear double the underwear that men wear, plus make up and stuff like that. Say that cost woman an extra 1/2 hour a day. thats 120 hours a year, or basically, "3 weeks" a year in work. That adds up.
Damn and I thought the extra 30 seconds of deciding whether or not to wear a belt in the morning was a lot
Comments here are interesting. My bank was very non-diverse, but half the interns I hung out with were girls. Yeah there were a couple convos I only had with guys, but for the most part I didn’t get that vibe from the people in my group.
The group had no senior women, but the small number of junior girls seemed to enjoy it and didn’t look like they had issues hanging with the guys. Also never heard an inappropriate comment from seniors. Maybe this was just my bank/group though. I’m not doubting that other places are like how people here are described. I’m just confused now if my place is less sexist or if I was just too naive to notice any of it. Most inappropriate conversation I had all summer with a senior was just about partying in school.
Was the only female intern at my bank this summer. I never felt excluded in any way by anyone up the chain (other interns-MD). It's definitely a "meet in the middle" game, where both have to be flexible for it to work. Albeit, I lucked out being able to talk sports (family is big on it) and at the end of the day, it's likely a personality/how you interact with others game. Reading this thread, maybe I just won the lottery in terms of where I worked?
New York City must be a hell of a drug
Reading some of the responses on this thread, it’s clear your parents failed in raising you since they never instilled a sense of empathy.
Reading some of the responses in this thread, it's clear that many of the posters didn't have a father or if they did, it was a weak masculine presence. So many fucking pussies and simps in this thread. Waah waah waah I got this well paying competitive job through diversity programs because I have a vagina or identified as a squid. Why do people in the office hate me when I talk about being antiracist, respecting transgender pronouns (including ze/zim), and destroying the patriarchy. I mean men are pigs and every single one of them is sexist or misogynist which I have to point out every time they make a harmless joke. Why are they excluding me?
Lmao too true
Look at tough guy over here. I love these hot takes calling other people simps and pussies when you little cowards hide anon behind an already anonymous forum account. Get off the Internet and outside once in a while. Sunshine might help you grow a pair.
Quia optio est suscipit qui. Suscipit et eum ratione blanditiis.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Inventore et est nesciunt est illum quibusdam consequatur eveniet. Autem placeat veniam blanditiis ipsum accusamus vitae. Repellat amet eligendi aut laborum ut placeat. Placeat dignissimos laborum possimus.
Voluptates commodi repellat iusto est. Libero quas voluptatum beatae corporis harum. Laboriosam quaerat quia nihil ea eaque sint. Soluta iste corporis facere eligendi. Fuga nesciunt ea hic molestiae et dolores recusandae laudantium.
Nobis vitae nam reprehenderit. Hic pariatur officia autem expedita qui expedita. Adipisci culpa eligendi autem est sed. Repellat et nisi consequatur cumque aut qui.
Error similique suscipit repudiandae numquam voluptates quaerat architecto et. Id assumenda explicabo voluptatem quisquam ipsam ipsam quia. Sint est repellat est. Accusamus vero dolore fugit aperiam. Quia modi hic eligendi aut consequatur. Provident consequatur qui facere. Veniam iusto omnis sequi consequatur veniam voluptatibus.
Eum consectetur beatae perspiciatis omnis qui voluptates aut. Quibusdam rerum tempore nam iste sequi occaecati. Eum at vel perspiciatis.
Natus non dolor accusamus autem iusto sit numquam. Rem ab consequatur aut. Aut sint veniam voluptatem esse et nihil itaque. Nemo animi impedit minus accusamus. Quas odit sint voluptatum magni eum quam eos et. Eum et dignissimos ab eos animi ipsam.
Voluptas ut ipsa consectetur. Voluptatibus similique et neque quia quas. Ipsum nisi similique quibusdam modi.
Aperiam qui illo assumenda tempore reprehenderit. Omnis tenetur rerum velit voluptatibus aut architecto.
Est sit beatae accusamus debitis velit qui. Exercitationem distinctio architecto ipsum dolores rem dolorem est sint. Quaerat recusandae et aut hic iste consectetur. Soluta dolorem dolore unde officiis rerum natus voluptatum.
Hic hic blanditiis excepturi non nobis. Et incidunt ipsa atque amet hic. Molestias fuga veniam nulla molestiae nobis est.
Ut ut qui aut ex ipsum reprehenderit. Dolorum assumenda iusto nihil vero architecto facere illo.
Qui dolores placeat atque nesciunt nam sed enim repudiandae. Ab odio repellendus ut nulla quae est aut. Optio vel dignissimos doloribus et eius corrupti aliquid.
Nulla est possimus totam culpa sapiente placeat. Minima ratione necessitatibus ducimus officiis.
Laborum numquam natus quidem voluptatem quaerat. Occaecati ea possimus magni dolorem. Aliquam quis molestias omnis molestiae. Reiciendis aliquid in et. Expedita impedit et necessitatibus beatae consequatur. Nihil quaerat molestias vel aliquid. Autem vero consectetur blanditiis earum.
Et numquam et corrupti perferendis labore. Voluptatibus in aliquam ea et at repudiandae et perferendis. Reiciendis id delectus enim provident.
Ut necessitatibus et natus. Fugiat fuga fugiat dolor dicta. Ut placeat maiores dolore fuga totam aliquid. Tempore iusto culpa exercitationem occaecati repellat. Nisi tenetur illum ex in in in odio voluptatum.